Has any one repowered an early (pre SeaV2 hull) 228G with a four stroke? I'm looking at an F225 or F250, and am concerned about the added weight being way back on the Grady Drive. I'd love to hear from someone that's done it and know that the scuppers stay above the water line and such. Anyone?
Four Stroke on 228G
- Thread starter Grouper Duper
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I had one and Grady White and the dealer both advised against it. Too much weight. I went with an HPDI and never regretted it.
I have been on 228G pre SV2 and they stink, they dig holes on plane and never ride coprrectly from the added weight, plus need the transom to be redone and depending on the condition of the bracket, may need one of them as well, not a cheap job, and the after product is not good, plus the cockpit sits low and does not drain quick enough. I know many critsize nothced transoms, but if a wave breaks over the side, a nothced transom boat will drain quicker any day since it holds less water, I've been on some very wet 228G's that were repowered. I own a 1989 226 and we repowered with a 200 HPDI and it was a great choice. We had the 2nd boat repowered with an HPDI in NJ and the first 226 anywhere, it was an excellent choice and still to this day we have 0 regret, plenty of power, boat handles great and it is very good on fuel, in fact better then a four stroke. With the oil they burn, expenses are close, but you will have more range if that is maybe a factor. The HPDI is quiet also. An Optimax would work also but every boat I've run with an Optimax has been much noisier and Mercs are known to last about half the life of a Yamaha, a Merc may be quicker but do not have the long life. I'd listen to Grady and stay away froma four stroke repowered 228 unless it is a SV2, even some early 228's may need a transom check to check the shape and maybe some work, I believe the transom was thickened to accommodate the four strokes when they were introduced.
Really that much difference? From everything I've read, the net weight gain is only 60 pounds compared to a two stroke (remove oil tanks and such), which doesn't seem like a lot, even out on the bracket.
The trouble with HPDI is that I already have 225hp, and I definitely don't want less (pretty loaded sometimes). I think a 200 HPDI is a fantastic motor, but I want the same or higher power than I have. The 250 HPDI has a terrible reliability history, so I don't want that (although the prices are getting good because of the reputation).
I've been pretty happy with my Yamahas, so I really don't want to change brands. Also, my guages, cables and props will bolt right up to another Yamaha without further expenses.
The hole-digging and incorrect ride seems pretty extreme for a 60 to 80 pound change, doesn't it? I mean, I can move a 200-pound passenger from the front seat to the transom seat, and it's not like it's suddenly a different boat.
The trouble with HPDI is that I already have 225hp, and I definitely don't want less (pretty loaded sometimes). I think a 200 HPDI is a fantastic motor, but I want the same or higher power than I have. The 250 HPDI has a terrible reliability history, so I don't want that (although the prices are getting good because of the reputation).
I've been pretty happy with my Yamahas, so I really don't want to change brands. Also, my guages, cables and props will bolt right up to another Yamaha without further expenses.
The hole-digging and incorrect ride seems pretty extreme for a 60 to 80 pound change, doesn't it? I mean, I can move a 200-pound passenger from the front seat to the transom seat, and it's not like it's suddenly a different boat.
Oh yeah, and couldn't I relocate my 65 pounds worth of battery from right next to the transom up to the cabin area? A lot of new boats have the batteries in the center console or under the cabin/helm area.
By the way, I love that 265! Not many around, but it has been my favorite since I saw it the first time.
By the way, I love that 265! Not many around, but it has been my favorite since I saw it the first time.
I went from a carbed 225 evinriude to a 200 HPDI and the 200 has way more power, I think most will agree. The holeshot is great and power was plenty. The difference in a 2 stroke and 4 stroke is where the weight is located, in a 4 stroke the bulk of weight is going to be further off the transom and located further back in the engine, this location effects how the boat sits and weight is distributed. Also, most 4 strokes are weighed without fluid weights, add more weight for the oil in the crank and the oil well, that makes them heavier yet. An alternative would be an E Tec, but on a 22 seafarer a 200HPDI would be my top choice.
plymouthgrady
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It's over 100 lb difference, the oil tanks and oil weight are meaningless since they are so far forward relative to the cantilevered 100 lbs extra at the power head, and it is back about 2 feet from the transom being on a drive - compounding the effect.
If you want to see the difference yourself, get four bags of playsand in the clear bags at the depot, 50 lb each, about $4. each place them as far back on the cockpit floor as possible. Then use, gas, and load the boat as you normally do.
When you get done, cut them open and dump sand only over the side, or take them back for a refund.
Easy enough?
If you want to see the difference yourself, get four bags of playsand in the clear bags at the depot, 50 lb each, about $4. each place them as far back on the cockpit floor as possible. Then use, gas, and load the boat as you normally do.
When you get done, cut them open and dump sand only over the side, or take them back for a refund.
Easy enough?
Really that much difference?
Well, here's what I've got: '86 model 225 G, Honda 225, dual batteries, tabs. None of the older models are dry rides compared to newer hulls, regardless of engine. The extra motor weight places my scuppers at about the water line at rest. With just motor trim I can make it ride high enough to beat you senseless or low enough to bury the bow in 3'ers. With tabs, it's a simple matter to tweak the ride for max fuel economy and/or ride. My transom is dry, the bracket is fine, and I wouldn't want anything less than a 225 (can't speak to a 250, but my 225 weighs 680#). I also can't speak to the ride with a full aux tank (would be to the rear in my boat), but I believe I would have enough motor/tab trim to handle just about any weight distribution.
That being said, your 228G is the same hull and it's more bow heavy than the T-225, so your scuppers shouldn't be an issue. If your transom is a problem with a 4s, bet your a** it's a problem with a 200 HPDI. Ditto a corroded bracket. While it behooves the owner of older hulls to know for sure, not all older Gradys have wet transoms, corroded brackets and leaky fuel tanks, popular misconceptions not withstanding! I also checked with Grady, and they said the transom/bracket were more than adequate for a 225, all else being equal.
I often add a bait well at the rear bulkhead that weighs 280# when full. Only with 2 grown men in a corner is there any scupper leak (I actually use one of 'em as a bait well overflow), and it creates nothing unusual as far as getting up/maintaining plane or ride characteristics. I also usually trailer, so scuppers aren't much of a consideration anyway. Fully loaded I cruise at 4200, 29.5 mph by GPS, right at 3 mpg in nominal seas. Any wave I'd take over the transom would damned sure swamp a notched transom (not sure how that got into the conversation since you don't have one), and anything over the bow would would be the same difference with any engine.
The answer? Go with what makes you and your wallet feel good. I can tell ya a 4s will be marginally cheaper to operate and certainly more pleasant to be around while cruising. If you want to really know for sure, find someone with a 4s and offer to pay for a ride. New or old hull, you'll get a good idea what yours would do .... :wink:
Well, here's what I've got: '86 model 225 G, Honda 225, dual batteries, tabs. None of the older models are dry rides compared to newer hulls, regardless of engine. The extra motor weight places my scuppers at about the water line at rest. With just motor trim I can make it ride high enough to beat you senseless or low enough to bury the bow in 3'ers. With tabs, it's a simple matter to tweak the ride for max fuel economy and/or ride. My transom is dry, the bracket is fine, and I wouldn't want anything less than a 225 (can't speak to a 250, but my 225 weighs 680#). I also can't speak to the ride with a full aux tank (would be to the rear in my boat), but I believe I would have enough motor/tab trim to handle just about any weight distribution.
That being said, your 228G is the same hull and it's more bow heavy than the T-225, so your scuppers shouldn't be an issue. If your transom is a problem with a 4s, bet your a** it's a problem with a 200 HPDI. Ditto a corroded bracket. While it behooves the owner of older hulls to know for sure, not all older Gradys have wet transoms, corroded brackets and leaky fuel tanks, popular misconceptions not withstanding! I also checked with Grady, and they said the transom/bracket were more than adequate for a 225, all else being equal.
I often add a bait well at the rear bulkhead that weighs 280# when full. Only with 2 grown men in a corner is there any scupper leak (I actually use one of 'em as a bait well overflow), and it creates nothing unusual as far as getting up/maintaining plane or ride characteristics. I also usually trailer, so scuppers aren't much of a consideration anyway. Fully loaded I cruise at 4200, 29.5 mph by GPS, right at 3 mpg in nominal seas. Any wave I'd take over the transom would damned sure swamp a notched transom (not sure how that got into the conversation since you don't have one), and anything over the bow would would be the same difference with any engine.
The answer? Go with what makes you and your wallet feel good. I can tell ya a 4s will be marginally cheaper to operate and certainly more pleasant to be around while cruising. If you want to really know for sure, find someone with a 4s and offer to pay for a ride. New or old hull, you'll get a good idea what yours would do .... :wink:
I had a 1990 242 Offshore with a 2004 Yamaha 225 4 stroke and on a bracket and the scuppers were under water. Its more weight then you think. I hated having my scuppers under water. Make sure you check it out before you buy that 4 stroke.
Its more weight then you think.
Wow, that's interesting. The current F225 weighs 583#, the 225 HPDI comes in at 475, and the current Vmax at 539. If the extra 75-125# (give or take) buries you scuppers, what happens when two grown men move to the stern? And that's on a boat rated for 300 hp ... :?
Wow, that's interesting. The current F225 weighs 583#, the 225 HPDI comes in at 475, and the current Vmax at 539. If the extra 75-125# (give or take) buries you scuppers, what happens when two grown men move to the stern? And that's on a boat rated for 300 hp ... :?
It is not so much the scupper height but the cockpit height, adding another hundred lbs may be the difference of 1" at the transom on some boats depending on how they are loaded. That one inch may keep the cockpuit above the waterline in most conditions unless rough and do not present a huge problem, if the cockpit is underwater all the time due to extra weight, it will create a problem and make the cockpit wet very often. Any good boat is designed to have the cockpit above the waterline at rest. Adding 100lbs to the stock transom may put the transom close to or over its limit of what it can handle, Grady has made it very clear that the transom cannot handle the added weight. If you do go to a 4 stroke you better have the transom rebuilt and beefed up. Also many older brackets are not far enough off the transom to house a 4 stroke cowling, measure it to see. You want to be able to fully tilt the engine up, not have it hit, really depends on the breacket, boat model and particular engine.
I would imagine Curmudgeon would have said so if the motor couldn't tilt up (my current 225 two stroke has plenty of extra room), but I'll check on that. I've also decided on a simple test...I'll drop the boat in the water and sit myself on the motor to see what it does (at rest, of course!). That will be 200 pounds more than what's there, so that should cover all the bases.
BTW, my floor, transom, fuel tank and motor bracket have shown no signs of weakness at all. Plus, the placard says the boat and bracket are rated to 280 hp I believe; not that I've ever seen a 280 hp engine! I would assume an alleged 280 hp engine would weigh considerably more than any (then available) 200 or 225.
Anyway, I'll post the result of my "sit on it" test next week. I've been back on the motor quite a number of times (why it's getting replaced), and have never noticed any water come in the scuppers. Never specifically looked, though, so it will be interesting.
Oh, and thank you for all the replies so far!
BTW, my floor, transom, fuel tank and motor bracket have shown no signs of weakness at all. Plus, the placard says the boat and bracket are rated to 280 hp I believe; not that I've ever seen a 280 hp engine! I would assume an alleged 280 hp engine would weigh considerably more than any (then available) 200 or 225.
Anyway, I'll post the result of my "sit on it" test next week. I've been back on the motor quite a number of times (why it's getting replaced), and have never noticed any water come in the scuppers. Never specifically looked, though, so it will be interesting.
Oh, and thank you for all the replies so far!
Adding 100lbs to the stock transom may put the transom close to or over its limit of what it can handle, Grady has made it very clear that the transom cannot handle the added weight.
Well, that's not what Grady made clear to me when I was shopping for my boat! I believe (in theory and practice) that putting a 225 hp 4 stroke on an otherwise healthy transom/bracket rated for 280hp and nominal loading is a non-issue. You'll have to explain this "cockpit under water" theory as my cockpit has drains under the forward and middle cockpit that are above waterline, and we've about beaten the rear scuppers soundly. I'm sure each hull/loading is different, but older brackets and new euro-transoms are different animals.
Duper, I can bury my scuppers if I sit on the engine, but that's an effective engine weight of 850#, which is 230# above actual. And my Honda will trim all the way up and the skeg is dry; does have to be turned slightly left so the rigging tube doesn't pinch. If yours doesn't have trim tabs, explore that, also, regardless of what engine you settle on. Makes a big difference in ability to modify ride quality with pre-SV2 hulls ... :?
Well, that's not what Grady made clear to me when I was shopping for my boat! I believe (in theory and practice) that putting a 225 hp 4 stroke on an otherwise healthy transom/bracket rated for 280hp and nominal loading is a non-issue. You'll have to explain this "cockpit under water" theory as my cockpit has drains under the forward and middle cockpit that are above waterline, and we've about beaten the rear scuppers soundly. I'm sure each hull/loading is different, but older brackets and new euro-transoms are different animals.
Duper, I can bury my scuppers if I sit on the engine, but that's an effective engine weight of 850#, which is 230# above actual. And my Honda will trim all the way up and the skeg is dry; does have to be turned slightly left so the rigging tube doesn't pinch. If yours doesn't have trim tabs, explore that, also, regardless of what engine you settle on. Makes a big difference in ability to modify ride quality with pre-SV2 hulls ... :?
I am glad you found my post so interesting. Wow, anyway I was just stating what it was like on my bigger 1990 242 Offshore. The boat ran good but the scuppers sat underwater. I would call Grady and get there take in it. Also I would be more worried about how the boat would do with a load and in a bad seas. If hes just going to use the boat for the bay with not full loads than it might be ok. But if hes going to have near ful loads and goes out in the ocean in rough seas thats another story.Curmudgeon said:
That 280hp rating was to accomodate an I/O which was heavier at the time, but the bulk of the weight was located forward of where an outboard would be so they sat the same in the water. The hp rating is only one way a transom strength is determined, it must be able to handle the weight as well as the torque of an outboard as well as the applied force applied from the hp. If you think throwing a heavier outboard on an older Grady, pre SV1, or even any boat more then 10 years old will have no effect and is ok, it is not. I design boats for a living and know what happens to them over time, that factor of safety Grady built into that transom to make it safe dwindles over the years, that is why it is there, but then modifying the boat and adding a new heavier engine that handles completely different will make a huge difference on the strength of that transom. The extra weight not only adds more downward force from the weight, stressing it, but when you hit waves and the engine shutters a little, it sends a ripple effect and lots of forces into that transom in various directions, adding a lot more force onto it. It is not as simple as saying I could handle a few lbs over what Grady says I can and I should be fine. I repowered my 1989 Grady and would have loved to put a 4 stroke on the back but knew it was a horrible idea, I've seen what can happen. I've seen repowered boats overloaded that sank at the dock, that got water in them on the water because owner's overestimated what THEY felt comfortable with and never realy thought about what the boat can handle or was built for. Unfortunately you are not left with many engine options, or they may not be your number one choice, but it is not a newer boat and that is something that all boat owner's with older models will have to deal with and may not be able to have their optimal choice. If they do push the limit of the boat, have the work done or 5 or so years from now you may have major problems.
I bet if you call Grady White and ask them about this, they will not back up this idea. Having that extra weight on the bracket (thats an old boat and bracket) is a risk. You are going to put more stress on it and when you get in a big seas with a good load for that boat, you will feel it. It sounds like you are doing your home work, but no one can really tell you how that boat is going to take a chop or a big seas until you get out there and have to deal with it. Is the risk worth the reward? I wish you the best.
plymouthgrady
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Direct Quote from Grady White's Web site on FAQ "Older Grady White Boats were designed for lighter two stroke Engine's". It sounds like it more of an issue with twin engines because of the 26" line and with 4 strokes because of size its 28". They say to do a weight test and see where your waterline is.
So I guess Grady was fraudulent when they affixed the plate to my bracket hull which says max HP 280? Who woulda thunk that 280 didn't really mean 280! None-the -less, I give up. Guess I'll just go fishin in my over-stressed, over-loaded junk heap with that damned ole 4 stroker. Somehow it always manages to get me home again .. and again .. and again .. and again ... :wink: