282 Sailfish - Water in fuel!?!?

SecondWind282

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Has anyone had an issue with their Sailfish constantly getting water in the fuel tank? I have sealed top of tank with epoxy (even over the sending unit) installed new water tight oem deck plates, re-caulked floor panel. I filtered the fuel tanks last season and got them free of water (ran 50 miles and checked separators to confirm before I stored it last summer). Ran it this weekend and water in fuel alarm goes off almost immediately and I've drained almost 1/2gal of water from the separators...

The only two places for water to get in are sending unit gasket and the gas cap. That I know of. I didn't see any way water is getting on top of my tanks now and it looks impossible for water to get in through the gas cap the way its shaped and with the o-ring.

I have everything I need to pull the trigger on new tanks but I'm not sure the tanks themselves are the issue. Would hate to spend $6k and find myself with the same issue

I'm at my wits end with this so any help is greatly appreciated.
 

seasick

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How did you test for water in the fuel? How did you filter the tanks?
The most accurate way to check for water is to pull the sender and either hand pump out a sample or buy water detection paste that you apply to a thin stick and dunk in the tank.

In addition, if you drained a half gallon of water out of the separator, it would have had to be just about full of water. meaning there is a lot of water in your gas tank.

Just to clarify, I assume your water alarm is the sensor in the on the motor fuel filter. You didn't mention if you checked/drained any motor filters. You didn't specify your motor model. That might help
 

SecondWind282

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How did you test for water in the fuel? How did you filter the tanks?
The most accurate way to check for water is to pull the sender and either hand pump out a sample or buy water detection paste that you apply to a thin stick and dunk in the tank.

In addition, if you drained a half gallon of water out of the separator, it would have had to be just about full of water. meaning there is a lot of water in your gas tank.

Just to clarify, I assume your water alarm is the sensor in the on the motor fuel filter. You didn't mention if you checked/drained any motor filters. You didn't specify your motor model. That might help
Engines are 2008 yamaha F250's with onboard filter with water float alarm. This has been an on-going issue and I thought I had finally discovered the problem - the round deck plates located directly over the sending units were bad and the sending unit wasn't tightened all the way down on the tank so water could leak thru the deck plate right onto the sending unit, and then into the tank from the poor seal.

After getting water in fuel alarm last season, I pulled the cock pit floor panel up and pulled out both the sending units (Aux and Main tank). I used a manual transfer pump from harbor freight to pump fuel from the bottom of each tank into a clear 5 gal water jug. I put a heavy brass fitting on the end of the pump hose so I could hear it hit the tank bottom and slide back to the very back corner of the tank. I had the boat tilted up really high so water would gather in the bottom back corner of tank where the pump hose would be sitting. I pumped into the clear jug until all the water was gone and I was only pumping clean fuel (you can see the water settle to the bottom in the clear jug). I did this for both tanks.

Once I was sure all the water was removed, I re-installed the sending units with some fuel resistant gasket maker sealant for good measure. I cranked the screws down as hard as I could. I coated the top of the tanks and even the sending units with a rubberized bedliner coating for belt and suspenders. I installed brand new OEM deck plates with water tight rated seals. Of course, I re-caulked the floor panel when re-installing.

It is next to impossible for any water to get on top of the tanks now and if it does there is a thick layer of waterproof coating to prevent it from going anywhere.

Before I stored the boat last season, I ran 50 miles with very frequent draining's of my water separators to ensure all the water was out of the fuel. I thought I had this problem licked once and for all.

However, this past weekend was my first time using the boat since then about 7 months ago. It took about 5 minutes of running before the water in fuel alarm sounded. I ran the boat, drained the separator, and repeated this. I pulled about 1/2 gal of water (again you can see it when it's in a clear jug).

So, somehow between last season and now, a lot more water got into my main tank. My Aux Tank thankfully was still clean fuel and I wasn't pulling any water from the separators when running on that tank.

The fuel vent is inside the fuel fill which is below the gas cap. The gas cap looks fine, has an O-ring. If you look at the gas cap it actually lips over the plastic nozzle receiver so it's not like rain or boat washing water can splash into it.

I'm just at a complete loss for how this much water can be getting into my fuel. The only thing I can think of is that last year when I had the water in the fuel I also had treated with a heavy dose of fuel stabilizer which I read essentially dissolves the water into the gas. I'm wondering if there was actually more water suspended in the fuel last season and over 7 months and temperature changes, phase separation occurred and the suspended water separated out and settled to to the bottom of the tanks.

Also, for whatever it's worth, the tank engineers were clever in making one of the pick-up tubes a lot lower than the other so it's only one engine water-separator that always picks up the water and not both.
 

seasick

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Most of the things you did were fine. Two things were not 100% correct. The first is in general you should not use sealant on the sender gasket. Using it isn't the worst thing in the world but using the wrong sealant can cause issues. You stated you used the correct sealant
The second is that you should not tighten the sender bolts as tight as you can. That can cause distortion of the tank or sender flange. That can lead to leaks. These issues probably aren't your problem.
In 90+% of the cases, water intrusion is via the combo fill/vent fitting. The cause is a bad o-ring. It can't hurt to change it, just make sure you get the right size.

If you are using E10 gas, that will absorb about 1/2% water by volume. So for a 100 gallons of gas, about 2 quarts of water can be absorbed. Additional water will settle to the bottom of the tank

If you had phase separation due to water, your fuel sample will settle down into three layers. Phase separated fuel can not be recovered or treated.
I am not sure is 'stabilizer bonds water to the fuel, If it has alcohol (think the old DryGas days) that alcohol will allow some absorption of water into the fuel just like Ethanol gas does.

As to condensation; If that were the cause, I would expect it to occur in both tanks assuming they held a similar percentage of fuel at winter layup
 

SecondWind282

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Most of the things you did were fine. Two things were not 100% correct. The first is in general you should not use sealant on the sender gasket. Using it isn't the worst thing in the world but using the wrong sealant can cause issues. You stated you used the correct sealant
The second is that you should not tighten the sender bolts as tight as you can. That can cause distortion of the tank or sender flange. That can lead to leaks. These issues probably aren't your problem.
In 90+% of the cases, water intrusion is via the combo fill/vent fitting. The cause is a bad o-ring. It can't hurt to change it, just make sure you get the right size.

If you are using E10 gas, that will absorb about 1/2% water by volume. So for a 100 gallons of gas, about 2 quarts of water can be absorbed. Additional water will settle to the bottom of the tank

If you had phase separation due to water, your fuel sample will settle down into three layers. Phase separated fuel can not be recovered or treated.
I am not sure is 'stabilizer bonds water to the fuel, If it has alcohol (think the old DryGas days) that alcohol will allow some absorption of water into the fuel just like Ethanol gas does.

As to condensation; If that were the cause, I would expect it to occur in both tanks assuming they held a similar percentage of fuel at winter layup
Thanks. I have a new gas cap O-ring being delivered tomorrow. I'm hoping the water I'm dealing with now is from the old contaminated fuel I tried to salvage having a lot more suspended water than I realized and it separating out this past offseason. Now that I have all that sealant over the top of the tank and sending unit I will have to connect my manual pump to the fuel hose in the bilge where that fuel line connects to the water separator and pump out as much as the pickup tube will get (which, unfortunately, I know is not 100%). I'll just run small amounts of fuel in the main tank for the next couple weeks and check the separator very frequently until I'm certain no additional water is getting into it.

If I can disconnect the fuel fill hose from the tank from the deck plate, I'm going to pull that hose off the nipple and then run water over the gas caps and see if any water comes running down the fuel fill hose. Too bad I didn't think of that while the cockpit floor panel was off last year.
 

drbatts

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You need to fully pump the tank out. Get a fuel pump, pull the sender and pump everything out of the tank. By pumping through the fuel hose, you are leaving all the crap in the bottom of the tank.
 

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I fought this gremlin for years until I solved it. Probably o-rings on fuel fills and treating ethanol fuel. I am not using stabilizers and don't fill tanks at end of season. It does not come in thru sending units - would leak fuel if it were not sealed. Pitch boat up high and use a transfer pump to get fuel out thru fuel pickups. Then pull sending units and use pump with copper tubing to get the last of what is in the tank out. Use ethanol free fuel if you can get it there. I run Sierra clear bowl filters on both engines.

Water fuel 2.jpg Water fuel.jpeg Fuel Transfer pump.jpeg
 

Ekea

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if the issue is after it sat for the off season, my guess would be either condensation or bad gas. it sounds like the tank was not full over the off season. that can allow condensation to collect over heat/cool cycles. do you always fill up at the same station? maybe try somewhere else. do you get fuel with ethanol in it, or non ethanol? how was the boat stored over the winter? inside? outside and shrink wrapped? open and exposed to the elements?

the first thing i would do is have the system pressure tested. that will tell you pretty quick if there is a leak.
 

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Pump out the tank again the same way you did it the first time. But it sounds like you pumped it out right away and didn't let the boat set for a while to let the water separate out fully. Give it a day or two to be sure.

Pressurize the tank/system with a couple PSI and look/listen/feel.

Depending on whether you have a combo fill/vent line or separate fur vent thru-hull... will simply determine how you plug the vent system.
 
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seasick

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A few years ago, I was asked to look at a boat that was recently launched for the season but broke down during the first trip. The motor stuttered and died multiple times and then wouldn't start at all.
It was a small pontoon with a 90HP Merc.

I pulled the water separator out and dumped its contents into a glass container and let it sit. I also know that the tank had been filled before winter layup, the previous season.
After about 15 minutes, I checked the jar and there was no separation of anything. I wasn't all that surprised since the tank had been filled with fresh gas as mentioned.
On this boat the fuel tank was plastic and exposed to the elements.
To make a long story short, it turned out that the tank was filled with water. Where did the gas go? The tank was slightly concave in its top center and a small pin hole had developed where the capacity plate was mounted to the tank. During the course of the winter layup, rain and snow melt would pool on the top of the tank and seep into the tank through the pin hole. After a long enough time, most all the fresh gas was displaced by water.

Now to be honest, the smell of the 'gas' should have been a clue but my nose stopped working a long time ago and I was going pretty much by color and not smell. Lesson learned. That is why they sell the water detecting paste:)
 
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Where do you get the gas? do you use gas cans or a dolly? Same marina? gas station on the road?

The Gradys use Perko fuel fills. Some are vented and some are not.

Perko has 2 sizes of o-rings for the different deck fills

the fatter ones are for vented
 
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wspitler

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I had (have) the water issue with my 330. New o-rings, all good gaskets, etc. I even covered the fill ports with taped down plastic bags to eliminate fill port intrusion. New fuel level sensors and gaskets. No gas smell anywhere. If I keep tanks full, 350 gallons, extra ton of weight, then problem goes away. In central FL we get large temp swings and high humidity. Condensation is my only source. Ruled out all other possibilities. My fix is to keep 1/2+ levels and drain separators every 100 gallons or so. For long runs I drain the separators before the trip and often find each separator to have nice clear clean water in it after 200 gallons. Much better in the winter when our humidity is typically lower. Yamaha separators do their job well and if drained regularly will keep the alarm at bay. I use non-ethanol with marine Techron.
 
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fishin trip

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Has anyone had an issue with their Sailfish constantly getting water in the fuel tank? I have sealed top of tank with epoxy (even over the sending unit) installed new water tight oem deck plates, re-caulked floor panel. I filtered the fuel tanks last season and got them free of water (ran 50 miles and checked separators to confirm before I stored it last summer). Ran it this weekend and water in fuel alarm goes off almost immediately and I've drained almost 1/2gal of water from the separators...

The only two places for water to get in are sending unit gasket and the gas cap. That I know of. I didn't see any way water is getting on top of my tanks now and it looks impossible for water to get in through the gas cap the way its shaped and with the o-ring.

I have everything I need to pull the trigger on new tanks but I'm not sure the tanks themselves are the issue. Would hate to spend $6k and find myself with the same issue

I'm at my wits end with this so any help is greatly appreciated.
I had the same problem I put new o ring in and perko makes a fitting that lifts the cap off the gunnel that stops water from getting close to the cap
 
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seasick

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Years back I left the gas cap on the gunnel off. We have a horrific rain storms for a couple of nights so to cover all bases, I pulled the sender and pumped out a few gallons from the bottom of the tank. Absolutely no water!
My point is that assuming water doesn't pool on top of the fill fixture, it takes a lot of rain to make a big difference in the amount of water in the tank

I should also point out that if you use non ethanol gas you have a better chance of water accumulation over time in the bottom of the tank. E10 on the other hand does absorb about 1/2% water by volume and that gets burned off in the engine.
 

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My Islander has a recess on the gunnel where the fuel fills are located. Water runs down the boat, drops into this pocket and floods around the fuel fill. Probably makes leaving the fuel fill cap off especially problematic. Apparently Perko has figured this out and ships a 3/8" spacer with the new vented fuel fills (also cn be purchased separately). It's has a radius edge and diverts the water away and around the cap.
Spacer.jpeg
I also had a problem with adding stabilizer to my boat that was running fine only to have it stall after a short run with water in the filters. This happened to me two different years. Not sure if it was phase separation or what.

I found it difficult and expensive to remove fuel from the boat and dispose of it. I wound up cleaning it up and running it out in the boat.

I would cleanup my tanks using the Serira clear bowl and filters. If you stall the boat (way too much water in filters) I would drop the engine filters and primary filter cans, dump into to container, decant the fuel and put back into filter and top off with clean fuel from a container. Always fill filters up even if you just run out of gas (forget primer bulb) or you will be there forever. You could just dump it all and replace with clean fuel. Put them back up and run the boat. The running of the boat agitates the water and makes it easier to pickup. You may have to do this several times to really clean the tanks up.

Be careful with the resultant fuel. If it had ethanol in it to boost octane its not there anymore. At some point you need to add more fuel (few gas cans of premium or just more marine fuel).
 
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DennisG01

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I also had a problem with adding stabilizer to my boat that was running fine only to have it stall after a short run with water in the filters. This happened to me two different years. Not sure if it was phase separation or what.
That's strange. Probably just a coincidence. Stabilizer won't cause issues - chemically speaking, it can't. If it's the type of stabilizer that, in addition to stabilizing, is also meant to combat issues from ethanol, then it wouldn't "cause" phase separation - it would help to prevent it. Something else was going on.
 

SecondWind282

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You need to fully pump the tank out. Get a fuel pump, pull the sender and pump everything out of the tank. By pumping through the fuel hose, you are leaving all the crap in the bottom of the tank.
I've already done that twice. It's a lot of work to go through until I can figure out why I keep ending up in the same place.
 

SecondWind282

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I fought this gremlin for years until I solved it. Probably o-rings on fuel fills and treating ethanol fuel. I am not using stabilizers and don't fill tanks at end of season. It does not come in thru sending units - would leak fuel if it were not sealed. Pitch boat up high and use a transfer pump to get fuel out thru fuel pickups. Then pull sending units and use pump with copper tubing to get the last of what is in the tank out. Use ethanol free fuel if you can get it there. I run Sierra clear bowl filters on both engines.

View attachment 33441 View attachment 33442 View attachment 33443
Makes me feel better I'm not the only one... I run marine fuel and 90% of off season its covered with a laportes cover...

I've stored boat with tranks full, empty, non treated fuel, treated fuel, you name it. I'll be back there draining separators or pulling off the small float alarm filter on engine and dumping it in a jug no matter what, at some point each year.

I have done exactly as you say twice. I know how to get the tanks clean. I need to know how to keep the water out. Just got o-rings for gas cap. I wish I felt like this will solve it but I just don't have a lot of hope. It's the only thing left to try. And if it does work, I'll feel pretty stupid the $10 fix was the last thing I came up with

When I bought this boat 6 years ago the guy said, when you first run it after sitting, drain your separator, there's always a little bit of water in there. I know exactly why he sold this boat now.
 

SecondWind282

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A few years ago, I was asked to look at a boat that was recently launched for the season but broke down during the first trip. The motor stuttered and died multiple times and then wouldn't start at all.
It was a small pontoon with a 90HP Merc.

I pulled the water separator out and dumped its contents into a glass container and let it sit. I also know that the tank had been filled before winter layup, the previous season.
After about 15 minutes, I checked the jar and there was no separation of anything. I wasn't all that surprised since the tank had been filled with fresh gas as mentioned.
On this boat the fuel tank was plastic and exposed to the elements.
To make a long story short, it turned out that the tank was filled with water. Where did the gas go? The tank was slightly concave in its top center and a small pin hole had developed where the capacity plate was mounted to the tank. During the course of the winter layup, rain and snow melt would pool on the top of the tank and seep into the tank through the pin hole. After a long enough time, most all the fresh gas was displaced by water.

Now to be honest, the smell of the 'gas' should have been a clue but my nose stopped working a long time ago and I was going pretty much by color and not smell. Lesson learned. That is why they sell the water detecting paste:)
My father in law just discovered the same concave tank issue with his pontoon