Honda EU2000i Generator Usage

[gradyfish22]

I just purchased a Honda EU2000i portable generator to use aboard my 265 Express for overnighting offshore. This weekend we used it for the first time at the Tom's canyon and experienced some strange and somewhat worrysome situations while using it, I was wondering if anyone else has experienced similar things and what could possibly be the cause/solution. Thanks in advance for any insight.
When we turned the Gen on the panel had the reverse polarity light come on, but it shut off once the breaker was flipped. We ran the generator from 8pm until 3am without any issues, but at 3am the reverse polarity light came back on and periodically our lights would dim and electronics shut off but then they would cycle back on. We never lost power and the generator on econ mode never ran at higher rpm signaling more need to produce power. We even took it off econ mode to make it run harder and produce more power to see if that helped but it did not. We had the battery charger on, but it said only one bank was charging, which was the house battery bank using the power, that should be correct I think. We had a vhf radio, my Furuno FF and 3 4x5 Halogen spreader lights running which draw just under 5 amps each. From time to time we would use the SW washdown but never left the pump running, and from time to time we would turn on the 2 stock Hella marine spreaders in addition to the three new lights. When we started to experience these conditions and cycling of power, we shut off the new lights and the FF and only ran the vhf and the two stock lights, this did not seem to have an effect which makes me think it has nothing to do with my power load or generator. The generator itself was load tested when bought and ran perfect. The batteries had enough juice to start the engines right away, but that was after running the gen for 5 min after shutting all lights off. Was I doing something wrong or do I have an issue with my battery charger not being large enough or maybe wiring not ment to push that much current? Any insight or help would be much appreciated!! A friend of mine was also at the Tom's and had similar conditions on his boat except theirs started sooner and he had the reverse polarity light on from the beginning. It was also his first time running the gen overnight. His gen was wired and set up by a local Grady dealer. I may be running back out this weekend and hope to solve this issue to avoid any more sleepless nights offshore. Thanks!!

Tom
S.T. Barb II

 

[BobP]

http://www.greatgrady.com/forum/viewtop ... 78&start=0

 

[Grog]

Do you still have the stock 12V wire feeding your new lights and the FF, VHF,...? That would explain some of the problems. How do you feel about running 115VAC lights and get the load off the 12V system?

 

[BobP]

Grog & GF22,

there are several problems here, the battery charger front end may not be compatible with the non-sinusoidal wave form of the Honda inverter's ac output. Need to know when the charger AC bkr is off vs. on, does the rev pol light go on or off. Play with all the breakers on ac panel until you can get the light to change. Was the charger hot to the touch or usual temp?

What's the voltage read at each battery when the charger is supposed to be on, when on shore power vs. Honda, when stated loads are off and also on.

The state of charge of each battery, if wet cell, can be determined by a specific gravity tester.

With the generator running, charger on, loads on, rev pol light on, what's the voltage between ground wire on boat and neutral wire (green and white). Do same test on shore power. Be sure to use AC scale on meter.

Fortunately, he can do all the checks at the dock with a digital multimeter.

Contact charger manuf. to find out if the charger cares it is powered by a Honda DC generator's inverter.

And when the electronics were resetting, at the exact same time what else happened? Did someone hit the washdown pump hose nozzle, FW sink? Were any voltages readings of the DC bus while this was occurring at sea.

The other member with the rev pol situation may not be up to doing some of the tests called for by the members otherwise it would have been resolved.

All members should keep a digital multimeter on the boat and learn how to use it if you are so inclined as a DIYer.
You can get one on sale at Sears for half price, for 10 bucks a very decent one with big digits. Almost weekly a different model is on sale as much as half off.
No need to spend more than 15 bucks sale price.

 

[BobP]

I forgot to mention, when yoiu contact teh charger manuf.

Ask him how te hcharger responds to a situation when highloads are also connected to teh battery.

Does the charger max out and stay at full absorption current rating, or does it take a break periodically to cool off the battery because it thinks the battrey is that heavily discharged and doesn't want to overheat it.
This could explain the resetting.

This is all predicated on the charger working at all on the Honda's inverter.

Be sure to ask for someone technical or an engineer when you call the charger manuf, otherwsie you will be wasting your time with whoever is paid to answer the calls first.

 

[ahill]

Make sure you read Bob P's link as it relates to my EU 2000 experience. Toward the end there is a link to my distribution panel mfr that is interesting.
I believe the problem lies in the fact that the gen is an inverter rather than a traditional gen,
What does your rev pol lite do on regular shorepower?

 

[gradyfish22]

I do not have the reverse polarity light comeon on regular shore power, and it only came on after we tried to start one oif the engines to turn the boat, we did shut down the Honda as I was told to do by others who own it, for some reason they claim that you cannot start the engines with it running. Once we started it back up and flipped the breaker for shore power it came on. I was thinking along the lines of what Bob was saying about it being the charger, and his explanation makes a bit of sense. I plan to call the manufacturer tomorrow and see what they say. I also plan to talk to the guys at work who do our electrical systems what they may think is causing this as well as what I need to do to fix the situation.
Bob, my electronics never went off on their own, only after we would turn the SW washdown on to use it. If I understand that the charger was cooling down for a bit I am not as worried as before, I was worried I would lose power all together and be a sitting duck 113nm from home. Thanks for the suggestions, I will use my multimeter to take some readings later in the week when I can get down to the boat. I did check the guage on my Yamaha tachs and it was at 12.4V I believe and the engines started right up, we had thought about getting the multimeter out but once the engines started we wanted to get up on the troll and forget about it for a little, we felt it was safer to mess around with it back at the dock when we had more time.

 

[BobP]

The electronics resetting makes sense since pump motor starting currents are very high and the resulting momentary voltage drop can do it. However, it also indicates the charger may not be keeping up with keeping the battery charged during the duration.

And just because the motor cranked doesn't mean it wasn't near or on it's last leg. A specifc gravity tester can tell you the state of charge for a wet cell batt.

The only connections between the engine's DC system and Honda output is via charger, galvanic isolator if you have one, the AC White and Green, and DC negative. Perhaps a call to Honda to find out if the inverter can be parralled with another power source, what would happen?

Before or after this is resolved, you may want to consider always having one battery assigned only for starting duty.

Do the tests called for or have them done, and be sure to get a straight answer from the charger guy if the charger is effected by a non-sinusoidal AC inverter input, and if so, in what speciifc ways. Ignore it if they say "the charger wasn't designed for that" stuff. Need the question answered.

In general you don't want to run you motor with the charger on, perhaps at idle in error ok, but not over time and higher RPMS.

 

[BobP]

Forgot something again, the cheaper multimeters may not be accurate reading non-sinusoidal AC voltages, they are fine however on DC no matter where it comes from, also fine reading shorepower AC.

If you need to, seek a more expensive "RMS" reading voltmeter feature of the multimeter to accurately read non-sinusoidal AC waveshapes.

 

[jehines3]

Consider rigging up a way to charge a battery via the Honda DC charge output. This is designed specifically for battery charging. It sounds like you run pretty far out, so thinking this one out at the dock can save a headache out at sea. You really could use jumpers, but setting up a dedicated way to do this now is a good idea. Never know when a charger could eat it. jh

 

[jehines3]

Also check your GPS, most have a setting for low voltage alarm.
1) Make sure it is on.
2) Set it for 11.5V or higher

You may get a nusince alarm during pump start-ups. My electric head kicks mine if I've been off shore power over 12 hours with a normal load and light engine charging. jh

 

[BobP]

GF22, you didn't say what ampere rating the charger is and how many outputs and how much running load is on each output.

 

[gradyfish22]

I have a 2 bank 20 amp charger, which seems to be the problem after talking to the electrical guys at work today, my 5 spreader lights alone put me over this so once I drained the battery it began to pull in reverse instead of charging and this will often cause a reverse polarity light to come on. Since I was fine for part of the night and then over time things got worse, this makes a bit of sense, looks like I will be upgrading my charger to something bigger. In the spring I will also go to larger batteries to help the situation. Also, the dimming and normal cycling I experienced is a mix of the overdrawing from, the batteries and the processor that will calculate the time and draw and at a certain point will actually cycle the charger to prevent it from overheating. Not all chargers do this I am told, but mine does. I feel a bit better knowing what my issue is and that it is not the Honda itself, I am still going to call Grady and my charger company to see what they say and recommend. I will likely be upgrading to either a xantrex, newmar or charles charger since these are the three brands we use at work. Right now the xantrex has my eye but I will wait and see.

 

[BobP]

Looks like you have things under control for the next tuna trip.

I don't agree with the charger becoming a load drawing off the battery in reverse, that's not possible, and the 40 A charger if it stays on will cover the load you stated readily.

If the charger is working properly, you may just have to cycle it off and back on occassionally to return to absorption mode. You know when to do this as the manuf. tells you, or if not, with a digital voltmeter in use when you see the voltage trail off. Blue Seas makes a nice flush panel mount digital voltmeter, with a model choice that also is alarm setable. you wire the voltmeters into the DC bus, not where yamaha connects their gauges. The voltage at the battery should stay above 13V. when the charger is on, the same way the alternator in your car takes care of the car battery.

The reverse polarity light doesn't only mean the black (hot) and white (neutral) has been reversed from the source, it means there is a voltage between the green and white wires, not supposed to be, beyond a negligible magnitude.

Good luck and good tuna fishing!

 

[Bill_N]

This is interesting since I just bought a Honda 2000 for the same purpose. I have the stock charger on my boat and it was never used by the former owner but I've checked it a few times on shorepower and it seems fine so I plan on using it. I will report back on what I find when I finally try this out.

Bill

 

[BobP]

This is bugging me -

I reviewed the EU-2000i owners manual on the Honda website along with the schematic diagrams, and my suspicions have been confirmed.

The AC neutral is isolated from the ground of the gen unit including the third prong of the two outlets. There is a seperate ground connection on the front panel.

So unlike in the marina, the ships ground is now floating instead of being tied hard to the neutral upstream.

This explains the reverse polarity light. The green wire in the ship is at no particular reference relative to the neutral. So there can be some voltage between the white and green resulting in flickering or intermittant on. Doesn't mean there is a reverse polarity.

Honda doesn't know where you will use it so leaves it up to the installer and the municiple codes where applied.

On initial though, I would recommend you connect the unit's ground to the ships ground and neutral white, while in use only, however, users may want to check with your electrician.

I don't like the idea of having a floating ground system in your boat (islated from power source) and the unit's chassis ungrounded in case it gets hot by short circuit (energized) and you touch it. Now it will just stay energized.

The AC breaker is on the hot leg as it should be, if anything gets grounded the ground will just stay energized instead of tripping. And your ship does have some earth ground capability via the engine zincs underwater, as long as your DC ground is connected to your AC ground in the boat.

Tieing the two together will kill the rev. polarity light.

Jehines - the 12 VDC output is only rated 8.3 amps with no regulation, useless for the member's higer demand intentions stated, and is only recommended by Honda to do battery charging duty.

 

[Bill_N]

I'll have to take a look this w/e to see how or where I could tie into the ground on my boat. It seems strange though that I haven't seem something like this on THT since so many guys on that site use these for the same thing.

Tom, Where did you have the generator while it was running? I was thinking of putting it up on the bow in back of the pulpit and tying it off to the bow rail on either side.

Bill

 

[BobP]

I realize you are not addressing me, however:

Most who use portable generators at construction sites or at home are not grounding them, I would say. Some people who drive, use seat belts, some don't. I wear seat belts, have been doing so long before it became law.

I want to make it clear the advise I give is directed at competent DIYer owners, who are responsible for making their own decisions how to hook up and use the gen.

I would tend to think the generator AC output should be via GFCI, like my inverter has, maybe the Honda had it, didn't notice it though. I have been an advocate of GFCIs on everything being powered from AC on a boat, everything, not just at outlets.
From what I see on the website, from a perspective of operator safety, don't ever let any rain, spray, or anything wet get on this unit.

Good luck.

 

[gradyfish22]

Bob, I agree with your insight about grounding the generator and I think that is something I plan to do, most I talked to before using it said they did not so I took a chance only because I bought it 3 days before using it. I plan to do it correctly and run it that way the next trip, that should fix the reverse polarity light as you state, but I will still need a larger charger to handle my power load.

Bill N, We strapped it to the bow just aft of the anchor locker. I do not have a walk around so my foredeck is fairly flat, only with a 2inch recess forward, but it never moved all night. Buy ratcheting tie downs so you can tighten it up. We were tied to a pot in 2-3ft seas with an occasional 4footer and it never stopped working and ran quiet. If for some reason it begins to sputter up there due to the ricking, turn it 90 degress, the sputtering is caused from oil sloshing out. Turning it should work from what I've been told, but always carry some spare oil incase it leaks out, it will shut down if it gets low.

 

[Bill_N]

Tom, I have a 265 also and thought that would be the best place for it. Any thoughts on where you're going to attach the ground?

Bill