Electrical issues

ahill

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On a recent trip a relatively new house battery failed. In charging it the red charging light on my Guest onboard charger came on very dim while the green charged light was bright. The same condition occurred on my # 2 house battery which was fully charged. The failed battery did charge up.

Secondly, while on shorepower, with the charger circuit breaker off the DC system would shutdown when the battery selector switch was switched off. However when the charger was switched on the DC circuits were energized even though the battery switch was off??!!

Any suggestions?
 

ahill

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The shore power was an after market installed by the Grady Dealer where I bought the boat.
I'll diagram next week and send to you.
Thanks.
Sounds simple but 110V is involved so I don't want to make a mistake.
 

jehines3

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Where does the charger interface with the AC power. How does the DC charger output connect to the batteries. Where is the charger located. jh
 

jehines3

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Also, how many batteries, how many engines. How many charger banks on your model charger. jh
 

ahill

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The charger is a Guest Charge Pro model 2621. It is located under the rear seat (Sailfish 272) along with 2 house and 2 engine batteries. The charger plugs in to a dedicated outlet controlled by a breaker on my AC panel installed 2 years ago when shorepower was installed by my dealer.
The charger appears to interface through the battery switches 1 for 2 house and individual switches for the engines. The engine side does not have the problem.
There are 2 banks on the charger one for engines and one for house. The charger was probably installed by the prior owner as charging instructions are handwritten on a tag attached to the house switch stating that the switch must be turned on to charge house batteries. This is not the case for the engine bank.
What's curious to me is that the charger power supply is from a dedicated 110 outlet that SHOULD be separate from DC or else the DC would fry.
I plugged the charger directly in to the generator to see if that had an affect on the charging light intensity but it didn't. I did not test the DC with switch off and charger plugged direct to generator. I'll try that next week when I'm at the boat.
 

BobP

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The AC breaker via shore power connections, turns on and off the charger AC 120V input, there is no DC breaker for the charger (should not be one), and the charger outlet leads go directly (electrically) to the batts, usually charger leads are fused as them come from factory, then go directly to batteries. Your AC panel may have a main breaker, main breaker to be one too.

It is possible that a totally dead battery, and I mean dead, can show green on the guest chargers.

If you know how to use a multimeter safely, easy enough to see what your battery sees, by reading the voltage at the battery terminals, with charger on (ac breaker closed) and charger off (ac breaker open). Then report back these figures. Keep all ships power DC loads off, no lights, pumps, nothing, while you do this. Also check the fluid level and report back, don't add any fluid at this time if you see it low.

If you are not confortable working around batteries, it is not worth it, better off hiring it out.
 

ahill

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Correct there is no DC breaker.
I'll do the voltage tests reccommended.
The batt switches are mounted to a panel that makes tracking wiring difficult I'm going to remove the panel with switches intact to facilitate tracing wires.
The fact that the house batt switch needs to be turned on to charge house batteries indicates the charger is connected to the switch and not the batteries.
Thanks for your help.
 

BobP

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Good. There may have been a plan to have all 4 batteries fed from one charger via switching, not a good idea.
Anytime a charger is turned on it always must be connected to a battery, not DC load bus alone, and not open circuited. Better off adding a second charger, both chargers can be connected to same AC breaker. Chargers draw little AC current.

All the chargers I've used come preinstalled with fused DC cables, and I wire point to point directly to battery both pos and neg leads. If the lead is not long enough I lengthen it of same AWG.

As usual, be careful working around batteries, a lot of power is available and there is no fuses to save you. Wear safety goggles at the battery area.

Kill AC circuits, before working AC.
 

ahill

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What are the consequences to the charger of not being connected to a battery?
As I stated earlier the charger has 2 banks one for house and one for engines. I presume the benefit of running the house through a switch was to charge only one battery. If both are connected to one charging connection and one is charged and the other weak how will the charger function?
 

ahill

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After I review and diagram the actual wiring installation I'm sure the mystery will be solved. right now I'm guessing logic against the actual (unseen) installation.
I've owned the boat for 2 years utilizing shorepower a lot without encountering this problem.
 

BobP

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The charger may overcharge one battery, and undercharge the other.
Whenever batteries are tied together solid, the plan counts on both batteries living twin lives, if one goes first, the other is dragged down with it. It also counts on identical rated batteries.
Your charger has no idea how many batteries are connected in parallel, unless the instruction sheet shows such connections.

A charger is designed to be connected to a battery, if it is open circuited, it doesn't blow up - not to worry. However, you may think it is connected and charging when it isn't - not good. You may prefer the charger blowing up scenario to the being stranded off shore scenario !

If a charger is connected directly to DC loads without a battery on it, the voltage can fluctuate greatly during a period of time, be too low, or too high, depending on what loads you are using and what is going on / off, like a refrig. Being too low may stall motors and wreck them. Also, the battery acts as a filter - cleaning up a lot - like surges when any motor is turned on or off, and noise resulting in interference. Chargers create noise that can be sensed while listening to the stereo. Chargers are useless at filtering.
 

jehines3

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ahill said:
The charger is a Guest Charge Pro model 2621. It is located under the rear seat (Sailfish 272) along with 2 house and 2 engine batteries.

OK now we are getting somewhere.

Are the two house batteries tied together in parallel and treated as one battery to a switch?

If so the wiring is quite simple and someone screwed up your install, but it is easy to fix. Let me know about the question above and how to fix the problem will be simple. jh
 

ahill

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Again, I have not had the opportunity to view the actual wiring.
The house battery switch reacts as follows:
1.Charger connected to AC power
2. Turn Battery switch to #1 Battery and battery charging lights illuminate.
3. Same for switch position battery # 2
4. Same for switch position both

Note that prior to the current issue each battery would react differently with the red/green light sequence depending on its state of charge the red & green lights were both bright until charging was complete and then only the green light was on.
Presently the green is bright & the red remains dim. Both batteries appear to accept charge as #1 will run DC circuit after being on charger.
 

jehines3

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If it were me I'd remove the charger DC side out and rewire it. Connect it to the battery inputs on the battery switches. Put fuses right were it connects to the switch. Here is how mine is done. The 24 hour panels are tapped off terminals B, C, and E. Off terminal F is the House breaker (60A in the photo) which then goes forward to the Main DC panel. Each one of the mini panels is used for 24 hour loads (bilge pumps and battery charger inputs, cathodic protection, etc. The photo is from before my new charger and cathodic protection which will go in soon. The mini panels allow you to fuse wires before they leave the compartment and avoids the use of little inline glass fuses tapped right onto the battery. Just my preference. jh

BatteryCompartment.jpg


717-100A_Dia.jpg
 

ahill

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Thanks to another post, this may be my dead battery source!

:oops:

You may also have an always on feed running up to the bridge for radio memory circuits
 

ahill

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Problem Solved

Finally got down to the boat with my voltmeter.
Charger has 2 5 amp and 1 10 amp leads. Wiring is as follows:
Each 5 amp is direct to one cranking battery via a fused connection.
The 10 amp is also fused and connects to the common terminal on the battery switch. This explains DC current to lights and accessories when switch is in off position and charger is energized.

My problem started when the red LED light, which indicates charging, did not illuminate in a known charging state.
Voltage at each House battery with charger off was between 12.1 and 12.4 volts. Turn on charger to individual batteries via selector switch and voltage jumped to 13.34- 13.42 volts. So, the charger is working even though the red LED doesn't illuminate. At start of charging green light is off, As charging progresses green light comes on and progresses in brightness to indicate charging is complete functioning properly.

Final answer is I have a bad red LED on house side.

It was agood exercise as I now know my wiring details and also found all electric connections and in line fuses to be perfectly clean even though they are in a harsh environment.

Thanks for all your suggestions.