Replacement tank - Seafarer

[mashenden]

Does anyone have a suggestion for a non-custom replacement tank that would go in the aux tank area of a 1993 Seafarer? Preferably plastic, only becasue they seem more affordable, but I am open to aluminum alternatives if affordable.

My plan is to put the new tank in the space where the aux tanks would be (mine does not have one), then slowly drain the old tank and use the phase separated gas in less valued motors like lawn mowers, etc. Once I have used the 90+ gals of old gas, I'll clean the tank and inspect it, then decide if I want to redeploy it.

 

[akm88]

I am new to this forums......

 

[Parthery]

Have you checked with RDS? They made the factory tanks for GW and should have the plans in stock....

 

[Doc Stressor]

You might need to re-think your plan.

The gasoline phase of separated E10 is below the octane rating required by any gasoline engine. You could damage your equipment and wind up paying more than what you spent for the 90 gallons of fuel.

You might be able to add an octane booster, but most of them don't really work well. They can't raise the octane level very much and can contain additives that can harm an engine.

I would bite the bullet and dispose of the bad fuel and only replace the tank if it is corroded.

 

[georgemjr]

Where are you located? There are a couple good sources on Long Island that I know of, but not helpful if you are elsewhere.

 

[mashenden]

In regards to adding an aux tank, has anyone ever put a Moeller 58 gallon fuel tank, model #032558 (aka FT5899), into a Seafarer, preferably something around a 1993 vintage?

This tank measures 44.0" l x 21.5" w x 15.75" d with another 2.25" needed at the top for the fill connections making the overall depth that is needed to be approximately 18".

The forward bilge area in my '93 Seafarer measures 55.25" l x 26.0" w x 21.0" d. The opening restricts the width to about 23.5" but could be trimmed out another .5" to .75" if really needed. It is also worth noting that:

• While the depth is 21", the V part of the hull cuts into the bottom part of that area a bit on either side so a depth of 21" is only possible for a width of about 17.5", then each side tapers up about 4.5" at something like 20 degrees.
  
  While the length of this compartment is 55.25", about 42.75" is the full depth then toward the aft, the remaining 12.5" in length has a platform built across, which I understand to be for the fresh water tank if it had one. This restricts the depth in this area to about 19".

Other factors are the fill and vent lines (preinstalled when the boat was built - yeay ) which enter the bilge compartment on the starboard side at about 17" up from the bottom as well as the PVC pipe for running wires from one side of the boat to the other that is also at about 17" up from the bottom, and is approximately 25" aft of the compartment’s front wall... in other words cutting across at about pretty much dead center of the opening, which is not ideal for sliding in a tank.

So all of that said, it appears this tank would fit both the width and depth without modification and would fit lengthwise if I either trimmed the platform out a couple of inches, which appears to be an easy cut or built the rest of the bilge up to this level. The two complicating factors appear to be 1) possibly cutting out the side to side PVC pipe temporarily so the tank can slide into place and 2) the existing fill line is 2" diameter, while this tank has a 1.5" diameter inlet. Assuming no other complications this seems like a reasonably good tank selection.

Any advice/comments/concerns?

The gasoline phase of separated E10 is below the octane rating required by any gasoline engine. You could damage your equipment and wind up paying more than what you spent for the 90 gallons of fuel.

Thank you for the input. No worries there - I will test the low octane gas in a lawn mower that has a value of less than $25. Given the fuel has a value of just under $300, this risk makes cents (pun intended) . That said, do you know if the phase separated fuel varies in octane from top to bottom or if it settles out at a layer of fuel that is all the same octane, albeit low?

 

[Doc Stressor]

The octane level should be the same throughout the gasoline layer. Diffusion rapidly distributes the remaining ethanol.

 

[mashenden]

I have started the auxiliary tank installation in my '93 Seafarer. For anyone that is interested I will update this post with any parts and problems for future reference. So far this is working out very well.

Objective - Install an auxiliary tank so that I can run the new engine (Yammy 225 4 stroke) on fresh fuel from a new tank and lines, allowing more time to get rid of the nasty fuel in the old tank (and probably getting rid of the old tank).

WARNING - Never, ever (ever) run fuel from an old tank into a new motor. I am told that the ethanol found in much of today’s fuel will loosen up the lacquer build up in an old tank and pretty quickly gunk up the filters in the new motor, and there are several filters to include the separator and the injectors. IMHO, not worth the headache given the intent of buying a new motor.

Parts (about $430 so far):

• 58 gal poly tank - Moeller 032558 - Boatbandit - $260 and about $40 shipping with other parts
  Gas fill - 316 SS - Whitecap 6123C - Boatbandit - $23. Looks similar to the Perko part that GW used but is cast stainless and less $$. In case it matters to you, the word "Gas" and screw holes are in different locations from the OEM part (the Perko 0520DPGCHR is what GW used, but has a metal cap instead of the black plastic cap).
  Gas vent - Perko 0509DP4CHR - Boatbandit - $30. A bit pricey but is exactly the same as the vent that GW used.
  Spring to go around the vent hose to stop kinks - McMaster-Carr part number 9637K17 (pack of 5)
  3/8" A1 rated fuel supply hose - Qty = 14' - Great Lakes Skipper - $45
  Brass fitting for fuel supply - Straight w 1/4" MIP threaded & 3/8" ID barb - Lowes
  #10 SS oval screws for fill plate - Qty = 3
  SS clamps for 3/8" hose - Qty = 4 - Lowes (hopefully marine grade-ish )
  SS clamps for 5/8" hose - Qty = 4 - Lowes
  SS clamps for 1.5" hose - Qty = 4 - Lowes
  5200 caulk - Walmart (small tube since this stuff gels once a tube is opened)

The tank measures 44.0" l x 21.5" w x 15.75" d which fits nicely in the aux tank compartment that measures 55.25" l x 26.0" w x 21.0" d. The lip around the compartment opening is further restricted to a width of 23.5" but that is still not a problem given the dimensions of the tank that I chose. The main effort was that I had to remove the shelf at the aft part of the compartment. I suspect this shelf was intended to support the water tank if so equipped. My Sawzall tool tackled this nicely.

I used 5200 and a couple of screws to hold two 48" PT 2x6's in place that support the tank bottom as well as to lift the tank 1.5" so it does not interfere with the angled part of the compartment (presumably the boat's bottom). Also the 2x6s provide a place for mounting 2x2 blocks fore and aft of the tank to stop it from moving.

I positioned the tank about 10" back from the front wall so that the fill and vent connections could be made without kinking, while also keeping them at the high point under normal conditions.

The boat already had a 1.5" fill hose and 5/8" vent hose from this compartment to the area where the existing fill and vent are located. Another example of awesome GW forethought given it would have been very tricky routing these in the tight spaces.

The hole for the new fill was drilled next to the existing fill using a drill hole saw. It was set to 1 7/8" diameter for the Whitecap 6123C hardware that I used and was fastened into place using 5200 and the 3 #10 SS screws

Similarly, a hole was drilled in the side for the vent hole, but caution is needed to make sure the hole is drilled far enough forward so that the new vent hose will not interfere with the new fill hose. The vent hose needs room to be routed up then back down in an inverted "J" so water can never enter. Care is also needed not to loop the vent hose in such a way that fuel can ever collect at a low point as this too will cause future problems. GW installed a hose spring on the original vent hose to stop it from collapsing. Definitely needed given the cramped space. If I were to do it again, I would try using the next smaller diameter spring in the McMaster-Carr catalog because I suspect it would work a bit better, but the one noted above did just fine but let the hose collapse just a bit more than I had hoped, but certainly not to the point of obstruction (the main thing trying to avoid).

I put PT 2x4's on each side and one across the top in between the related grooves as the final means for holding the tank in place. It is important not to over restrict the tank as it needs to be able to flex.

 

[uncljohn]

WARNING - Never, ever (ever) run fuel from an old tank into a new motor. I am told that the ethanol found in much of today’s fuel will loosen up the lacquer build up in an old tank and pretty quickly gunk up the filters in the new motor, and there are several filters to include the separator and the injectors. IMHO, not worth the headache given the intent of buying a new motor.

I did and had zero problems. But its all relative. My 20 y.o. tank apparently wasn't filled with lacquer residue and didn't have water intrusion. I'm sure many people don't have the $ to repower AND replace fuel tanks at the same time. The point of a separator filter is the eliminate the stuff before it gets into the engine. If/when it gets clogged, replace it and keep going.

 

[mashenden]

WARNING - Never, ever (ever) run fuel from an old tank into a new motor. I am told that the ethanol found in much of today’s fuel will loosen up the lacquer build up in an old tank and pretty quickly gunk up the filters in the new motor, and there are several filters to include the separator and the injectors. IMHO, not worth the headache given the intent of buying a new motor.

I did and had zero problems. But its all relative. My 20 y.o. tank apparently wasn't filled with lacquer residue and didn't have water intrusion. I'm sure many people don't have the $ to repower AND replace fuel tanks at the same time. The point of a separator filter is the eliminate the stuff before it gets into the engine. If/when it gets clogged, replace it and keep going.

I am glad to hear it, uncljohn. So many are having this problem, even with a good separator/filter, leading me to believe some gunk gets through.

Perhaps you are lucky or maybe the devil is in the details. Are you filling up with gas that has ethanol (as sold by many car gas stations) or instead getting gas from marinas (which typically do not sell gas with ethanol, at least in the VA area)?

If the latter, it could explain why you have not had any problems. I believe (although not 100% sure) the "dirty tank" problem has to do with using gas with ethanol after using traditional gas in the tank for its life prior to using the ethanol gas. I hear that the ethanol dissolves the varnish/lacquer that built up over time, which then makes its way down the fuel line, with a certain amount getting through each filter.

Anyways, in comparing the risk of a $1000+ repair (that typically is not covered under warranty on a new motor) vs spending $450 to have an all new system from book end to book end, the latter was worth it for me and seems in line with many GW owners wanting quality and value, rather than cutting corners. That said, I do plan to use the cheaper ethanol gas

 

[mashenden]

In case anyone is interested, with my new tank mostly installed and the boating season on the horizon, I have started drawing out the old gas from the old tank - roughly 8 of 90 gals thus far. I put the gas through a funnel with a built-in water filter into suitable containers for transport back home. Then I put some into clear containers to see what happened. Almost immediately it was apparent that the fuel was not good. It was milky during the siphon transfer, indicating water in the fuel, and then in about 10 minutes a very obvious separation took place. I am SOOOOO glad I did not put that fuel in my new engine. I suspect that under the care of the previous owner, water leaked into the tank (either a bad o-ring at the fill hole or a bad seal around the gas level sender) causing notable phase separation.

I also did another test - The bottom layer burned, so that seemed like proof (another pun intended ) that it was not all water. I deduced that it must be the ethanol/water layer that is reported to result from phase separation. Being reasonably sure the top layer was low octane gas that surfaces after separation, I put some in a lawnmower along with some 93 octane gas (1:4 ratio) and it ran just fine.

Consequently, the plan is still to use the low octane fuel over time in my lawnmowers and, if I get more confident, possibly in a Flex Fuel vehicle that I have. I should get about 70 gallons or so depending on how much water has made its way into the old tank.

But what to do with the ethanol/water layer? Presumably there will be about 10 gallons or so by the time all is said and done. I did find out that my County in VA will take contaminated gas so that was good news. Given the Gov created this ethanol/gas mess, it only seems fair they take the bad stuff for "free". But I have to wonder if it would serve some other useful purpose. Maybe it would mix well with Lime Coke (just kidding... I think)

Any ideas?

 

[mashenden]

While I have not worked up the nerve to try mixing the ethanol layer with Coke Lime (yet), I have progressively tried the top layer of "bad" separated gas in the lawn mower first, and then my Dodge Durango.

I let the fuel settle so I can then siphon off the top layer leaving behind any water and separated ethanol. Then I put it in the tank using a filter funnel, along with about the same amount of 93 octane gas to bring the octane level up. Point being that the top layer is usable gas but low octane since the ethanol is no longer present so to be safe I mix 50/50 with 93 octane.

To date I have burned 20 gallons and seen nothing negative. Actually, my miles per gallon (mpgs) is up by 1.3 mpgs, presumably due to the use of 93 octane...something my Durango rarely gets (except when pulling the boat).

 

[mashenden]

All the "bad" gas is gone... all burned in vehicles after separating and discarding both the water layer and the ethanol layer, then mixing about 50/50 with 93 octane fresh gas. Absolutely no adverse effects in case anyone cares.

Regarding the tank, the new one is in service and working well. I feel it was worth the effort not having to worry about whether old gunk is making its way into my new engine. Best $400 I ever spent (A parts list is included in my earlier post from Feb 24th, if interested).

The plan to remove the old tank so I can convert that area into storage is on ice for now. I found out that GW must put the gas tank in before they put the deck on. The opening is smaller than the tank :evil: . Not by much but smaller none the less. That means I will need to trim some of the lip off with a Sazall, which in turn means it will not happen until Fall or next year.

It is time to use the boat

 

[richie rich]

All the "bad" gas is gone... all burned in vehicles after separating and discarding both the water layer and the ethanol layer, then mixing about 50/50 with 93 octane fresh gas. Absolutely no adverse effects in case anyone cares.

You were lucky...tried that with my car and mower....although the car burned it, it did stumble once and kicked on the check engine light...but the mower needed a carb rebuild after use......its a gamble sometimes.....others have had no problems.....depends how bad the mix was.