Deal gone south

HTHM

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2019
Messages
150
Reaction score
41
Points
28
Age
62
Location
Mount Hope, On, Canada
After about a year and a half of searching, I found a Grady 190 Tournament that:
a. I could afford
b. Appeared to be in the condition that I wanted
c. Was close enough to where I live to go and get.
Spoke with the owner on the phone twice, we managed to come to an agreement on the value and I convinced him I wasn't a Craigslist scammer. He sent me an email this morning accepting my offer, but it had to be cash. My concern with using cash is the civil forfeiture laws that are in place in the States, I get pulled over and there goes my dream of owning a Grady. I was about to send him a response accepting the offer, when he sent me another email rescinding the acceptance. As is his right. An annoyance for me, sure but if both parties aren't happy with a deal, then it's not worth doing I suppose.
So back to my tin can and all the sinking worries that come with running a boat that has hundreds of holes in it by design.
Rant over.
 

HTHM

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2019
Messages
150
Reaction score
41
Points
28
Age
62
Location
Mount Hope, On, Canada
No, but he did provide me with some detailed photographs. I'm prepared to redo the transom if necessary. This one APPEARED to be solid, no stress cracks, rust stains etc., and the fuel tank had already been changed. Until I made the 7 hour drive, I couldn't be sure.
 

luckydude

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2020
Messages
1,142
Reaction score
541
Points
113
Age
62
Location
Santa Cruz Mountains, CA
Website
mcvoy.com
Model
Seafarer
No, but he did provide me with some detailed photographs. I'm prepared to redo the transom if necessary. This one APPEARED to be solid, no stress cracks, rust stains etc., and the fuel tank had already been changed. Until I made the 7 hour drive, I couldn't be sure.
Don't be me, have any boat that you make an offer on, surveyed. I paid $25K for my first boat that turned out to be worth $10K.
Don't be me, you'll over react and buy a new Grady as your second boat :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mustang65fbk

family affair

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2010
Messages
1,316
Reaction score
297
Points
83
Location
Ohio
Model
Islander
So what was the owner not happy about? Were you not willing to pay cash?
 

Mustang65fbk

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2020
Messages
2,375
Reaction score
645
Points
113
Age
38
Location
Seattle area
Model
Seafarer
A. I'm confused. What do civil forfeiture laws have to do with being pulled over and not being able to own your boat? The way that I've always gone about dealing with someone, and I much prefer dealing with a dealership or business because of reasons like this, is that you agree on a price and come up with a bill of sale. Add everything to the bill of sale like the hull number, serial number on the engine, VIN on the trailer if there is one and so forth. Once you have a bill of sale, you have a binding contract, so if he were to not want to give over the title's or so forth then you'd be able to take him to court or take him to small claims court. An annoyance for sure, but definitely a possibility when purchasing anything nowadays.

B. There's a multitude of reasons why he probably wanted you to pay him with cash including... it's instant, you don't have to wait for a cashier's check to clear, people will oftentimes change up the sales price with regards to taxes paid - not condoning this, you don't have to wait for a credit union to approve you and it's much quicker and easier. I wouldn't have any issue at all paying someone cash for something and isn't really a red flag imo. If it was something like a house where it was hundreds of thousands of dollars then I'd be a little bit more hesitant or skeptical.

C. I understand where the seller is coming from to be completely honest, and no offense, but I never talk about a price over the phone or via email on a boat I've never even seen before. The same goes with something that I'm selling and someone is trying to get me to agree on a price over the phone with something they've never seen, or especially when they lowball you. That's a huge red flag to me that they're a tire kicker or aren't serious about buying the boat, or whatever it is that I'm selling, and especially if they live locally. If they lived 400-500 miles away or more and said "Hey if I come out, like the boat and want to buy it then are you open to offers or are you set on the price?" Or "Hey if I come out, like the boat and want to buy it then can we come up with an agreed upon price over the phone?" That way it shows the seller that you're interested, ready to come out and look at it and so forth. I sold my last boat in September of 2020 and it was such a PITA dealing with tire kickers on Craigslist that I almost pulled the ad because I didn't want to have to deal with people wasting my time and making lowball offers. So, I can definitely see where the seller is coming from in your instance, and the only time I've ever come to an agreed upon price over the phone with a boat sight unseen was for an out of state purchase. But even at that point, I'd still told the seller that I was interested in the boat and looking to have a surveyor come out and inspect it, so it would be an offer pending a favorable survey.

D. Why don't you post an ad in the "For Sale/Wanted" section of the forum and let people know what you're looking for? You say you're looking for a GW 190 Tournament that "I could afford" and "Appeared to be in the condition that I wanted". That's extremely vague as it doesn't say at all the range of years that you're looking for in a boat, nor does it say what your price range is. I just spent the last year looking for a 228 Seafarer and would say something like I'm looking for a 1998 and newer Grady White 228 Seafarer, preferably with 4 stroke power, a hard top and a trailer, and my budget is a max of $35k. That way, if someone on here has a boat they're looking at selling then they could respond to your post or send you a direct message or lot of people are bored and want to "help" other people spend their money. So they'll look for boats for sale for that person to try and help them out. I'm doing the same with another member on here that's looking for a GW 228 Seafarer similar to the one I purchased and have been talking back and forth by direct messaging.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pighunter

HTHM

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2019
Messages
150
Reaction score
41
Points
28
Age
62
Location
Mount Hope, On, Canada
A. I'm confused. What do civil forfeiture laws have to do with being pulled over and not being able to own your boat? The way that I've always gone about dealing with someone, and I much prefer dealing with a dealership or business because of reasons like this, is that you agree on a price and come up with a bill of sale. Add everything to the bill of sale like the hull number, serial number on the engine, VIN on the trailer if there is one and so forth. Once you have a bill of sale, you have a binding contract, so if he were to not want to give over the title's or so forth then you'd be able to take him to court or take him to small claims court. An annoyance for sure, but definitely a possibility when purchasing anything nowadays.
I have read many horror stories of US cops pulling some one over on the interstate finding out that the person has a sum of cash on hand and confiscating the cash as drug money or some other criminal activity regardless of the fact that the money is legitimate. There is no easy recourse to this as I understand it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United_States
I only have one boat fund, if I lose that I lose my ability to fish and boat. That's why I had a price negotiated, and wanted to present a certified cheque as payment.
This would have been a cross border transaction and the exchange rate comes into play as well.
 

luckydude

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2020
Messages
1,142
Reaction score
541
Points
113
Age
62
Location
Santa Cruz Mountains, CA
Website
mcvoy.com
Model
Seafarer
I'm a tractor guy as well as a boat guy. I bought a small construction tractor that came from Michigan. I convinced the guy to drive it out here. How we did the financials was an escrow account, which is pretty easy. That way the seller knew that I had the money, he had the tractor, I got to look it over, then I released the funds and he gave me the tractor. Not sure if that works across borders but it is a thought.

The other thing is develop some questions that are telling in how the seller handles them. For craigslist stuff, my question is "If I get this, have it for 24 hours, don't damage it or put more than 10 minutes of use on it, and decide it is not for me, will you take it back?"

What I'm looking for is how they handle that. If it is "hell no", well, why not? Red flag. If they immediately go into thinking about the logistics of how we make that work, how he can verify I didn't screw it up, that's a giant green light, he's willing to stand behind whatever it is.

If you get the slightest weird feeling, unless it is the deal of the century (which is its own red flag), walk away. I shopped for 2+ years to get my tractor and I'm very happy with it. I walked from multiple deals that felt weird.
 

enfish

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Messages
434
Reaction score
68
Points
28
Location
San Marcos, CA
Model
Adventure
I have read many horror stories of US cops pulling some one over on the interstate finding out that the person has a sum of cash on hand and confiscating the cash as drug money or some other criminal activity regardless of the fact that the money is legitimate. There is no easy recourse to this as I understand it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United_States
I only have one boat fund, if I lose that I lose my ability to fish and boat. That's why I had a price negotiated, and wanted to present a certified cheque as payment.
This would have been a cross border transaction and the exchange rate comes into play as well.
Wait, the USA has turned into a 3rd world country where cops pull people over and confiscate money with no warrant and no probable cause? Maybe I'm naive, but if you're worried about that, I can see why you may have scared the seller off...
 

Mustang65fbk

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2020
Messages
2,375
Reaction score
645
Points
113
Age
38
Location
Seattle area
Model
Seafarer
I have read many horror stories of US cops pulling some one over on the interstate finding out that the person has a sum of cash on hand and confiscating the cash as drug money or some other criminal activity regardless of the fact that the money is legitimate. There is no easy recourse to this as I understand it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United_States
I only have one boat fund, if I lose that I lose my ability to fish and boat. That's why I had a price negotiated, and wanted to present a certified cheque as payment.
This would have been a cross border transaction and the exchange rate comes into play as well.
I've never heard of anything like this before. Do you actually know of anyone personally that this has happened to? I'm sure that I don't have to tell you this but not everything on Wikipedia or other stories told online are always 100% accurate or true. I live in Washington state, and I'm not sure about other states but, I was a police dispatcher for several years and I know that in Washington State that the officers/deputies can't just search your vehicle because they "suspect" you might have something. If that was the case, then they'd be pulling everyone over and searching through every vehicle they did a traffic stop on. Even in the case of DUI the officer or deputy has to go through the court system, speak with an on call judge on the phone to get a search warrant for the vehicle to get approved for being searched. And only at that point can they search the vehicle. Unless the officer/deputy is just being an arsehole, I also don't know how they would suspect that the money you have was used for a drug deal or whatnot. Some people walk around with no cash on them at all, some have thousands of dollars and if you have wealth, you could have $10-20k or more on your person at all times. I don't see how they could ever prove that the money you have was involved in something illegal, especially if you showed a paper trail of either applying for a loan with your credit union or the withdrawal slip from your bank account showing the same amount of money.

The officer/deputy would also get your drivers license on a traffic stop and run you to see if you have any outstanding warrants and so forth. If you have a clean background then I can't see how they would keep you "detained" with the traffic stop for longer than an acceptable amount of time. I also know that in Washington state, although I'm not sure about others, that it isn't a stop and ID state. That means if you're walking down the street minding your own business and a cop pulls up alongside of you asking for your drivers license to ID you because you "look like a subject involved in a theft"... you aren't required to provide your ID or even acknowledge the cop or his presence at all. You can simply ignore him/her and continue walking. Now, if they were to "detain you" or "place you under arrest" it's a little bit different but they have to have reasonable cause and just because you have a similar description to the theft suspect, isn't reasonable enough cause to arrest you. It's all a bit confusing but I've lived in the Seattle area for my entire life, at just under 36 years, as have been a police dispatcher/911 call taker off and on for over 5 of those, and have yet to ever hear anything even remotely close to Civil Forfeiture. Also, obeying all traffic laws, keeping your license plate, tabs and drivers license up to date as well as a few other obvious things would likely keep you from ever getting pulled over to begin with. If you did get pulled over, I obviously wouldn't be flashing around $10k-20k in cash or give the officer any reason to suspect anything. And lastly, traffic stops are generally considered to be in the misdemeanor category as opposed to a felony, so as long as you're not DUI, getting a reckless driving ticket or not doing what the officer says, I can't see it ever escalating beyond that. If they did, and took your $20k or whatever you had, then they'd have a lawsuit on their hands. Especially if they took it or confiscated it without a proper search warrant. That would be very bad for them.
 
Last edited:

Mustang65fbk

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2020
Messages
2,375
Reaction score
645
Points
113
Age
38
Location
Seattle area
Model
Seafarer
Wait, the USA has turned into a 3rd world country where cops pull people over and confiscate money with no warrant and no probable cause? Maybe I'm naive, but if you're worried about that, I can see why you may have scared the seller off...
Exactly
 

luckydude

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2020
Messages
1,142
Reaction score
541
Points
113
Age
62
Location
Santa Cruz Mountains, CA
Website
mcvoy.com
Model
Seafarer
Wait, the USA has turned into a 3rd world country where cops pull people over and confiscate money with no warrant and no probable cause? Maybe I'm naive, but if you're worried about that, I can see why you may have scared the seller off...
He included a link about it, it is a legit concern if you are caught with $20K in cash, the cops can just "decide" that you are a criminal and take the cash. You don't get it back unless you can prove you aren't a criminal. If he is looking for an affordable boat, he probably doesn't have the money for a lawyer good enough to prove he's not a crook.

America has a lot of good in it but it has a lot of bad as well. Is what it is.
 

Mustang65fbk

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2020
Messages
2,375
Reaction score
645
Points
113
Age
38
Location
Seattle area
Model
Seafarer
He included a link about it, it is a legit concern if you are caught with $20K in cash, the cops can just "decide" that you are a criminal and take the cash. You don't get it back unless you can prove you aren't a criminal. If he is looking for an affordable boat, he probably doesn't have the money for a lawyer good enough to prove he's not a crook.

America has a lot of good in it but it has a lot of bad as well. Is what it is.
As I mentioned before, I'm sure if he showed the officer/deputy the paper trail of himself applying for a loan or showing the withdrawal slip on his bank account for the amount of cash in hand, then the officer/deputy wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Nor have any reasonable suspicion to believe otherwise.

With everything going on in the news over the past several years involving police officers, I honestly don't think hardly any would be stupid enough to do something where it's going to put them in an even worse spotlight than they're already in.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pighunter

glacierbaze

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2012
Messages
2,382
Reaction score
606
Points
113
Age
75
Location
Chapel Hill and Pine Knoll Shores, NC
Model
Seafarer
Civil asset forfeiture is something that everyone should be aware of, and oppose at every opportunity. Law enforcement agencies in the USA take more cash every year, without probable cause, than all burglaries combined. Just commented on this on another forum today. When you see people sitting in the grass along our interstates, and other major highways, while a team goes through their vehicle, they are usually getting robbed. For expensive vehicles and such, local agencies often turn them over to Homeland Security, where they are basically untouchable, and HSA give them a generous kickback, which is cash in their pocket. And it often goes directly to the department, and not through local government funding channels.

Mustang65fbk- read up on CAF from a source that you trust. It is a perverse law, where LE does not have a burden of probable cause, it is entirely on the victim to prove that there is none.
 
Last edited:

Mustang65fbk

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2020
Messages
2,375
Reaction score
645
Points
113
Age
38
Location
Seattle area
Model
Seafarer
bank check. local bank to the seller. should be no issue unless seller is the scammer.
The OP lives in Canada and the seller lives somewhere, unknown where, in the states. I wouldn’t be opposed to a cashiers check or some sort of check but I’d make damn sure the funds cleared before giving them the boat. And depending on your bank or credit union, it can sometimes take a couple of business days on up to a week before the funds clear. If it was a local deal where both parties lived 10 minutes away from one another, then it would be one thing. Waiting for funds to clear hundreds of miles away in a different country though could prove to be problematic, or at least more time consuming.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sdfish

ElyseM

GreatGrady Captain
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
933
Reaction score
45
Points
28
Location
highlands, nj
agree on cross border. but a bank check should clear almost immediately. that said, i personally wouldn't transact with a private seller/buyer for anything more than a few hundred dollars. i don't rust anyone anymore.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PointedRose

Hookup1

GreatGrady Captain
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
2,688
Reaction score
732
Points
113
Age
69
Location
Cape May, NJ
Model
Islander
How much money are we talking about? Seems awful ridged on sellers part. Open a TD Bank account. They are Canadian based. Talk to your local bank and work the details.
 

SkunkBoat

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 12, 2017
Messages
4,303
Reaction score
1,490
Points
113
Location
Manasquan Inlet NJ
Website
www.youtube.com
Model
Express 265
Wait, the USA has turned into a 3rd world country where cops pull people over and confiscate money with no warrant and no probable cause? Maybe I'm naive, but if you're worried about that, I can see why you may have scared the seller off...
yes cops do that alot, especially in southern states to Mexicans or people who look like Mexicans. And they get away with it. The police dept keeps the money even if they never charged the person with any crime. America, what a country!