86 204c Transom Project

sfc2113

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yes, the photo bucket pics are excellent reference, thanks very much. You cant see em but I printed them out and have them taped to the wall on the right side of the black tool box. Once I finish a step I put my pic under it , Kinda like a check list and I put my notes of what additional tasks to do next to each pic before moving on. Good system for me anyway. I do have the resins and hardner inside to stay at room temps and am thinking I could put a small ceramic heater inside the bilge behind the inner skin at night on low could keep things warmed up from the inside for the cure if it get real cold.

by the way if anyone is looking for a good price on west systems resin and hardner and other stuff for there boat I have been using this site for everything for this project except the wood: http://www.discountmarinesupplies.com/

The items come packaged great and very fast shipping is only 10$ no matter how big the order and no sales tax. For me, they have already saved me allot.
 

richie rich

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you dont want to wait between layers to cure...you want to add layers wet on wet...a chemical bond is stronger than a secondary mechanical bond and you avoid sanding which you will need to do each time you let a layer cure......its ok between layers of wood core, but I wouldnt do it between layers of glass unless youre just tying in various sections, ie, transom complete 1 week, stringers another, deck a 3rd.....the 206 is good...it should cure blush free.
 

cdwood

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richie, what I think he's planning on doing is getting the first layer of plywood in place and letting that cure fully because of his time constraints, probably no glass in between. Are you saying that you do not get a chemical bond if a layer has cured before the next layer is applied?
sfc; think about this. if you are coating your plywood with multiple coats of epoxy which I would advise, then sanding before the next epoxieing is unavoidable. If you feel you can throw the whole thing together in the same day then that's different.
If you can get the second layer of plywood epoxied and in place before the first layer kicks then your good.
Keep in mind that just because the epoxy kicks, that does not mean you can not add the next layer right away, I would however want to get it in place within a couple hours(long before full cure).
What will happen is once the first coat of epoxy kicks it will not be mushy and flexible, this will require the next layer of epoxy between the ply to be thickened some to fill any gaps between the sheets of plywood.
At this point you may be adding to the thickness of your overall transom causing the outer skin to not line up as flush as you would like. This is critical to your overall finished product.
If you recall, I mentioned to you that I had to have my second layer of plywood face sanded by about 1/8 to make up for added material.
 

sfc2113

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I do plan on doing this in multiple sessions, over the month of Apr, and soaking all my transom sections in multiple coats of epoxy prior to install. The wood should all go in in one day, the skin the next. So I guess sanding between coats is inevitable.
 

richie rich

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Sorry guys...let me clarify my comments...I thought you were doing each layer of glass one at a time and letting it cure fully in between.....if you're doing one layer of ply at a time thats fine....you don't need to put layers of epoxy all around each ply, sand then put together....just do one layer and one side of each layer at a time...for instance...you just ground the glass and are ready for wood layer 1....pre-wet the freshly sanded/ground transom glass and the one side of the wood against it with clean or "neat" epoxy....let it soak in on the one face and the end grain...then just re-apply with a thickened version using a notched trowel in one direction like doing bathroom tile, to allow the trapped air to escape, and bed it in with plenty of clamps and thru-bolts....don't over squeeze...just enough to see the goop coming out the sides....now you'll have 3 of 4 sides permanently sealed...the next exposed side of the wood will be ready for layer 2, just as you just did against the original glass...... wood will absorb epoxy to a certain point because of viscosity...then as it sets up, it becomes a blocker..... you just need enough to feed the dry spots as once the epoxy is in the grain and cures...all the layers you add will just sit on top...it will not penetrate any further...yeah its protection....but its not needed and you'll get a permanent waterproof bond just doing the pre-wet and re-wet method.

this will give you tons of time between layers of wood with NO sanding...then when all the layers of core in place....the last layer of wood core will have an open face/grain exposed side ready for fresh glass and resin for the best bond.......do the same as above, ie, pre-wet and re-wet and do all your perimeter tabbing, corner fillets and full sheet glassing in one shot..and youll have plenty of time in between.....remember, just because the epoxy has hardened to the touch doesn't mean its cured...its just set up.....within limits, you can do wet on wet with hardened coats as long as you stay within the MFG'ers guidelines for reapplication without the need for sanding and solvent wiping...it could be up to 24 hours depending on brand of resin....but once you pass that timeframe, you have to let it fully cure, sand and re-apply...not as good but still ok....just alot more work.
 

BobP

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Unless the sun is on what you are doing, it' s too cold for resin work.
The resin/hardener viscocity changes tremendously in those temp ranges. Curing is another issue, you don't want to apply resin when it is viscous.

Cloth will take longer to wet out, no big deal just time, but wood will not get the penetration depth and that's a no-no. If glass is set onto plywood, ripping off the glass should take plenty of wood with it, you can do an experiment. If no wood with it, no good is the bond.

Also, once resin sets (can't stick thumb nail into, I prefer using the back of hand for "tackiness"), you have to cut the surface to get a bond, two directions of 60 or 80 grit plus water/scotchbrite off the amine blush prior. That's a lot of extra work. Have to vacuum the dust and acetone wipe too.

If you want to do your first layer of wood against existing glass and come back later, just don't wet out the other side until then. tripple wet out end grains,
Then you should have all of your layers of wood cut and ready to go, and holes to clamp it down predrilled with screws and driver handy, and precut your cloth too and mark pieces in the order of where to go and which is next, I use small sticky note pads and a diagram of numbers by piece. For wood or glass, make sure you use 60 or 80 grit by belt sander or hand block prior (grinder does not count), vacuum dust, acetone or denatured alcohol clean.

West systems is not a light(er) visocity resin as they used to call themselves medium viscosity. So be minded especially of visocity based on ambient. The resin will change in an instand in a thin pot or layed or brushed out even if warmed in the house.

I'd not start the (resin)job or pick a day when it's going to at least 70 deg F daytime or 65 in the sun, and use a slow hardener.
Use plenty of silica thickened resin with a plastic notched trowel on the existing skin againt first layer of wood, and always prewet wood with regular resin, I prefer the thin foam rollers, chip brushes lay it down too thick for laminating. When using chip brushes - cut off half the hair with a fiskars - better to spread with since now stiffer instead of limp. Make sure when you thicken your resin it does not run out when clamping the wood together, that' s a reason some use glass in between, glass in between also stiffens the structure. Some use glass and thicked resin togther. Some thicked resin will squeeze out, but must not run. Make sure you have plenty of silica so not to run out, it dissapears fast.

DIYers typically overbuild and are proud of it, as I am.

Wetting a heavy cloth like 1708 on a vertical surface is ridiculous along with the thick pot syndrome that goes with it, you can wet out all your cloth on a table over a sheet of clear heavier plastic to save time, leave it wet well, roll it up or fold it and furl out on the wood, if the wet out cloth drips on the way to the boat, it will work fine just the same as if wet out on the vertical - but save time. Over mix the resin pots and pool up from the first cloth piece and after folding it up, place the next piece in that left over pot on the plastic, when you come back it will be absored, then continue to over mix pots to wet each out in sequence. Mixing pots to economize by piece always leads to needing one more mixed pot, again more time.

Good luck, your ne transom will last forever and be stronger than the original!
 

BobP

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By the way, no reason to wait (for curing as you call it) between layers of anything you do, just keep cranking it when you start the resin work. All the other work can be done now. I presume the boat is blocked properly so it stays put. Keep precut wood dry, can place in home.

If everything is preset/precut/etc. ready to go prior, when the target temp day hits, your resin and glass work is one day no overtime !
You can use screws for clamping between layers of wood and wood against existing glass and leave them in there until after finishing or permanently between layers of wood. When clamping existing glass to new wood, use strips of 2x4s not just screws. Dusc tape over any finished gel coat where resin may run, otherwise a month of Sundays trying to pick it all off w/o wrecking gel coat.

Leave it all to set just two days or so as long as ambient stays above cure point, but leave boat alone as blocked for longer like a week. If ambient temp drops below min cure temp during this period, it will not cure until temp rises again to above the min cure temp.
 

BobP

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I'm re-reading what I wrote and forgot some things.

When using heavily thickened resin (as you will) except a soupy mix, prewet everything incl existing set glass with unthickened resin first, not just wood which always gets prewet even when glassing over. Foam roller is the best otherwise too much resin with chip brush method. Two coats for face grain, 3 for end grain, I use same roller just wait a while to reapply. Apply liek your painting a wall, don't keep going back over it.
Leave resin with roller in plastic paint tray, always slow hardener out of sun. Try to do everything with resin in a thin pot, paint tray and foam roller = thin pots. Chip brush is thick pot, so is the mixing pot when using a chip brush out of it. Using slow hardeners out of the sun, I've had 3 hours or more while still being tacky even in hot temps, as long as pots stay thin.
Watch your thickened resin pot, it is the largest possible thick pot one can do, it will smoke and burn the pot and you so get the thickened resin out right after mixing as a lump and spread out in a quick way to coursely thin it some then you can work the trowel to get it down to final thickness.
 

sfc2113

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Thanks guys, really clears things up now. I get your point bobp on not coating with epoxy till ready to install. Once staurated and hard it cant penetrate any further with a second coat after sanding so why waste my time. I guess for this weekend it's finish the inner skin cleanup and reinforcement, tabbing ect. Get the wood ready. Measure, check, measeure , check, measure, check. I plan on using a 4x8 door skin as a template from the outer skin and adjusting the cut from the measurments I take. I will use that as a template for the 4/3 in plywood. I plan on cutting each layer into 3 pieces like cdwood did with a scarf joint spreading out the joint 4 in on the 2nd layer. Probably making my cuts on the plywood this weekend and setting up dry fit marking, clamping ,ect makes ure the 1st + 2nd layers is ready. Monday the 4th is looking like a warm overcast day here in NJ not dropping too low maybe 52 at night, So I may, may plan on getting the first layer set in this day. But, will leave the outer surface uncoated till I am ready to put in the second layer. I will be using west systems products only (105 resin and 206 slow hardner and high density filler). I am keeping them indoors along wqith the wood at rooom temp -65-70.
So looking for a day that will be 55-60 deg at high noon, full sun as well. But my boat is under a canopy and on a trailer still so it will not move.

Question on using the 2x4's bobp, I was planning on cutting 3/4 in plywood square washers about 2in x 2in driving 1 in deck screws along with a 1in galv washer on top of the wood block though pre drilled holes in the outer skin about every 1ft to 1.5 ftp in a line about a 2 ft spread apart up and down the skin, putitng plastic between each block and coating the screws with mold release.

but will 2x4's work better?
 

BobP

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You are getting advice from us all me jumping in last which is good since there are differnt ways to do things and we all get along on this site.
I know you want to get the work done, But it' still too cold for resin visocity when using wood, not glass to new cloth. Cloth wil just take longer to wet out fully. I guess you can heat gun the face of the wood to get it hot, but don't start any fires! Hot wood will suck in the resin further. So by all means make the wood hot even indoors in front of an open oven.

The 2x2 of 3/4 inch pieces you mention seem small.

Nothing wrong with having full pieces of 2x4 vertical with a few screws in each and the smaller pieces in the far reaches. Full duct tape each piece of brace wood used. I think you will need less screws this way.

You are spending time with mold release, I'd just break each off later and grind them off flush with same 4.5 in. angle grinder in a few seconds, who cares if screws stay there ( you can tell I'm time poor for everything I want to do).

You want full contact existing skin to wood no voids or wavyness, that's what matters. Seems the more braces the better.

You say deck screws, how about galvanized sheet rock screws? Cheaper and thinner to break / grind off. You can dremel them deeper with the cone shaped stone if you want to fill holes.

When it comes to big templates, don't try doing it in one piece, just get cardboard in smaller pieces and lay them in there along the edges (cut to match perimeter) and tape them all together overlapping as they are - tape up with clear or brown packing tape, that's your template can then transfer to one piece of door skin, but no reason to - just add more tape to backside, it will work fine and fast.

I keep old cardboard boxes from various things like small appliances / electronics folded up and laid flat, I find the thinner cardboard works the best for templates, using safety razor blade and fiskars scissors. Thinner cuts fine with scissors.

In your scarf joints, use plenty of thickened resin, you do not have to have wood to wood contact, just make sure no voids, and tripple prewet the scarfs since you are into end grains.

On another note, I use the Dewalt grinder model that has motor dust seal feature, can't kill it unless perhaps setting it on fire with gasoline!
 

richie rich

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sfc2113 said:
putitng plastic between each block and coating the screws with mold release.

I wouldn't use any type of mold release either...I would pre-drill the holes so the screw goes in and comes out easy....usually the thickness of the screw's shank, not the larger thread portion.....and the screw tip and threads only needs to go in about a 1/4 inch or so..with a fender washer as well.....it should come out easy....and once out, if you want you can just squirt in some neat epoxy in the holes to seal them up using a disposable epoxy syringe.......for the bolt through, just wrap the bolt shank with clear packaging tape...there is a release on the backside of the tape that will allow you to remove the bolt.......
 

sfc2113

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BobP said:
On another note, I use the Dewalt grinder model that has motor dust seal feature, can't kill it unless perhaps setting it on fire with gasoline!


This one has the same thing, but aslo has a fan in the handle that draw the dusts thru it and sends it out the rear , at first I thought something saw wrong, seeing dust flying out the back of the handle :huh
Not one spec landed on me, it all went flying over to my neighbors trees.

then I read the book and saw the dust feature , Pretty neet. Make sure no one is standing behind me. This thing should last forever, but probably wont see another job like this for years.


just curious, why no disk sander?
 

sfc2113

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Ok, the transom is put back togther, went better than expected. I am glad I took my time with it and glad I used the west systems epoxy. It is ROCK solid. Sorry, I will get the other pics up soon but for now I need to some guidance on how to clean this up.

Was thinking removing the 1" lip from the transom cap and leveling and filling back in with resin/matt, then wrapping fiberglass coth over the top, as for the side I guess it will be the same method.

Not sure how I should fill that hold on the stb side though any ideas.

transomcap1.jpg



transomprt.jpg


transomstb.jpg
 

sfc2113

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Ok, so all the fairing work completed and finished gel coating last Friday, will put up those pics later. Gave the gelcoat 3 days to harden. Got down to sanding this Monday.



transompaint1.jpg



This is after the gel coat applied (by roller, ouch)

transompaint2.jpg



After a full day of sanding, went through 12 sheets of 220 paper, 7 sheets of 320

transompaint3.jpg


After sanding with 400 grit got some shine. Did a little more and then hit with 3m cutting compound. Unreal how good this came out.

I took a gelcoat sample of a 4 in circle I cut out of the motor well to my local fiberglass supply and the match is almost perfect



Putting it all back togther this week. Will be back on the water this weekend. :dance
 

sfc2113

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Finished ..... Sea trial on 6/6 went perfect. I loaded the boat as I normally would. I think I spent the entire day looking in the bilge for leaks. Every five seconds I was turning my head looking at the transom nervous as hell. She ran so good in the bay I decided to run her out the inlet and hit some swells. Its now or never. After running over a few 2-3 foot swells, checked and rechecked, everything looked good. I decided to make a run North of our inlet for some Bass and I was rewarded with a nice 30lbr.... Here is the finished job...... and my reward.

I want to thank all who gave your input on this project, Especially cdwood. Chris, you were an invaluable source of information and inspiration. (Those parts are on me!)


sandyback1.jpg



sandyprt1.jpg


sandystb.jpg



fish1.jpg
 

richie rich

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Nice job on the transom...good work.....

Nice striper as well...I think a fillet or two in some hot peanut oil is required for celebration.
 

gradyrod

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Great job Paul!! Congratulations! You can go into business doing this soon! I dread having to do this when it 's my turn!!

Enjoy that striper!

Gradyrod
1985 Fisherman 204
 

family affair

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Great work! Been there done that... on the same boat too!
We used Sea Cast, which I know some people aren't crazy about, but it worked well for us; the second time.

I didn't read your entire thread, but I have to tell you this just in case. When our transom went we cored it out and used the Sea Cast. It seemed rock solid... until we ran it. What we missed (or think we missed) was that the fiberglass on the inside had fractured. We had to core out the Sea Cast, fixed the fiberglass on the inside of the transom, and re-casted. All was well for 5 years, and we sold the boat.
 

cdwood

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Well done dude, glad to see you took at least some of my advice, LOOKS GREAT.

As far as those parts, we'll talk about that.