I have a 1999 23' Gulfstream....it sat for 3 months because of a family member's health issues ( they are fine now Thank God ) It ran fine before. I added 80 gallons of fresh fuel and sea foam so the tanks had about 120 gallons. Well when I took it out back in the first week of Oct it ran fine for about 15 minutes then it cut off and wouldn't restart. Got it back from the grady dealer and they said the gas went bad. I had it drained and they also changed so seals and cleaned the VST and the fuel pumps on the Yamaha 225 2 stroke. I had the tanks drained, cleaned etc. Cost about $900. I asked the Grady dealer what is better for storage over the winter. THey advised keep both tanks empty. The People from the Fuel Cleaners advised to fill the tanks and add fuel preserver Valve Tech. I'm confused.......what is the best thing to do ?
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Advise Needed
- Thread starter midnight-rider
- Start date
gerrys
Well-Known Member
I don't believe your gas would have soured over 3 months. If it had ethanol, it's possible the gas separated and you got a healthy slug of water.
I'd say fill the tanks and add a conditioner. I can't imagine pumping hundreds of gallons out each season.
I'd say fill the tanks and add a conditioner. I can't imagine pumping hundreds of gallons out each season.
The last one to two trips before layup throw in some Stabil so that stabil'd gas runs through the lines and motor then put it away with the gas that remains. If you have Racors, that will take care of any condensation. However, I will say, up here in Ohio with the boat layed up for 5 months, I don't get any condensation in empty or half full tanks. I'd rather have fresh gas in the spring.
Strikezone
GreatGrady Captain
LI Grady
Well-Known Member
My fishing club had Jimmy and Harold from Suffolk Marine down to give a seminar on winterizing last friday. They are a top, top Yamaha dealer/service center.
They recommended filling the tanks 3/4. The pre-E10 rationale for empty tanks was that you would add a large amunt of fresh fuel in the spring and dilute and "sour" gas.
With E10 water and phase seperation are the bigger issue and by going with 3/4 tanks you limit the available empty space in the tanks in which condensation can form.
They suggest 3/4 tanks since (according to them) if you fill them in the colder months come the warmer spring the fuel will expand and potentaily spill out the vent.
They recommended filling the tanks 3/4. The pre-E10 rationale for empty tanks was that you would add a large amunt of fresh fuel in the spring and dilute and "sour" gas.
With E10 water and phase seperation are the bigger issue and by going with 3/4 tanks you limit the available empty space in the tanks in which condensation can form.
They suggest 3/4 tanks since (according to them) if you fill them in the colder months come the warmer spring the fuel will expand and potentaily spill out the vent.
ElyseM
GreatGrady Captain
LI Grady said:My fishing club had Jimmy and Harold from Suffolk Marine down to give a seminar on winterizing last friday. They are a top, top Yamaha dealer/service center.
They recommended filling the tanks 3/4. The pre-E10 rationale for empty tanks was that you would add a large amunt of fresh fuel in the spring and dilute and "sour" gas.
With E10 water and phase seperation are the bigger issue and by going with 3/4 tanks you limit the available empty space in the tanks in which condensation can form.
They suggest 3/4 tanks since (according to them) if you fill them in the colder months come the warmer spring the fuel will expand and potentaily spill out the vent.
same here from my guys with the inclusion of stabilizer. since we switched to e-10, i always add stabil with every fueling. heavier dose for winter layup. ron
Gasoline has an expansion coefficient of about 0.07% per degree F.
So if you get gas at 60 degrees, have a 80 gal in you tank (lets say a 100G tank) and then the tank warms up to 90 degrees, you will have about 81.7 gals in the tank.
Note that it works the other way too. You buy gas at 60 degrees and during the winter, the temp goes to 30. You now have 78.2 gallons in the tank.
My point is that leaving the tank at 3/4 leaves a lot more room than the expansion would use and is probably no better off than 1/2 full or 1/4 full.
There just isn't that much condensation that will occur in those tanks.
And to boot, the condensation in old non ethanol fuel would settle to the bottom. With E10 up to 1% water by volume would be absorbed into the fuel (and burned off when used).
In theory, E10 is better for small amounts of water than non E10.
So if you get gas at 60 degrees, have a 80 gal in you tank (lets say a 100G tank) and then the tank warms up to 90 degrees, you will have about 81.7 gals in the tank.
Note that it works the other way too. You buy gas at 60 degrees and during the winter, the temp goes to 30. You now have 78.2 gallons in the tank.
My point is that leaving the tank at 3/4 leaves a lot more room than the expansion would use and is probably no better off than 1/2 full or 1/4 full.
There just isn't that much condensation that will occur in those tanks.
And to boot, the condensation in old non ethanol fuel would settle to the bottom. With E10 up to 1% water by volume would be absorbed into the fuel (and burned off when used).
In theory, E10 is better for small amounts of water than non E10.
BobP
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http://www.greatgrady.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11955
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Suffolk Marine's Harold is a top flight mechanic, would have liked to been at that seminar.
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Suffolk Marine's Harold is a top flight mechanic, would have liked to been at that seminar.
LI Grady
Well-Known Member
It was mentioned in the Fisherman magazine but don't beat yourself up over it. They had the wrong dated.
I'll try to keep it in mind and post it here when we do another seminar.
Seasick...I agree. It seems like that would have to be some serious expansion but I was just repeating what I was told.
I beleive the issue with the E10 and the mechanics concern (bodering on paranoia) is that once phase seperation hits a tank the amount of water and the trouble it brings is significant.
I'll try to keep it in mind and post it here when we do another seminar.
Seasick...I agree. It seems like that would have to be some serious expansion but I was just repeating what I was told.
I beleive the issue with the E10 and the mechanics concern (bodering on paranoia) is that once phase seperation hits a tank the amount of water and the trouble it brings is significant.
BobP
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Curmudgeon
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We hear a bunch about the dangers of tank condensation and phase separation, but here's the question. Who has seen (first hand) any significant problem with condensation even before E-10? Back then, 100% of condensation would collect in the bottom. With E-10, I believe 100% is absorbed until saturation occurs. I've been boating for 50 years. While I've seen way too many carb problems caused by stale fuel over that time, from FL to IN to AK I've never encountered a problem attributed to condensation (or water ingestion from any source). Just sayin ... :?
LI Grady
Well-Known Member
I had a major water issue this year due to an incopetent mechanic who last year stripped out the screws on my sending units. Since the screws where stripped and the gasket never fully engaged I got gallons of water in my tank.
It would idle ok, but the motor pulling off that tank would shut down after 30 sec at cruise RPM. Not an E10 or condensation issue but a moron with a shop and a set of tools (2nd generation marine mechanic noetheless)
And while I've never seen it personally, Suffolk Marine has numerous E10 and water related stories. They were very engaged with yamaha when E10 first hit NY and caused havoc.
As an aside they told us about another E10 related issue that they have seen a few times. It seems that some type of acid (I don't recall the type) is used as an additive with E10 and screws up the VST screens/filters.
It would idle ok, but the motor pulling off that tank would shut down after 30 sec at cruise RPM. Not an E10 or condensation issue but a moron with a shop and a set of tools (2nd generation marine mechanic noetheless)
And while I've never seen it personally, Suffolk Marine has numerous E10 and water related stories. They were very engaged with yamaha when E10 first hit NY and caused havoc.
As an aside they told us about another E10 related issue that they have seen a few times. It seems that some type of acid (I don't recall the type) is used as an additive with E10 and screws up the VST screens/filters.
ahill
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You could also move to South Florida and avoid the winterizing altogether. Us builders would welcome you with open arms!
BobP
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All the negatives of fuel related condensation and other E10 issues are due to be ended once and for all, none too soon, with the implementation of laws to close the fuel system in boats, just like our cars have had for 30 yrs.
Why it took so long is because we boaters have not complained loud or long enough.
The law has been passed.
Off course, having a leaky fuel fill or ventf itting will do the damage irrespective. Same goes for the sender seal as mentioned.
Phase separation cannot occur with conventional fuel, and conventional fuel does not attract moisture to the same extent as E10 does, also E10 has a scrubbing effect to clean the scum including varnish off inner tank walls and hoses which will pass through filters.
Water separating fuel filters like racors and others would block the water when picked up off the tank bottom, no such activity is likely with E10 once separation occurs.
Water is not as bad as 100% ahcohol dissolved water mix, which I understand is corrosive. Nothing wrong with burning water as long as dissolved in the gasoline part of fuel.
The advise about filling the tanks for off season storage was always that, with use of a fuel preservative, in part because an empty tank is one big bomb and less safe to be around should an ignition source find the wrong place, and also due to less inner surface area exposed to effcets of condensation from fdaily expansion and contractin such in air, and water subsequent build-up at bottom of tank.
Same advise from Yamaha is offered for my 2 stroke oil tank in boat and oil tank on motor, keep it full for off season to mitigate condensation effects.
To use the manual switch on the motor to over ride the hi cutoff and fill it all the way.
Why it took so long is because we boaters have not complained loud or long enough.
The law has been passed.
Off course, having a leaky fuel fill or ventf itting will do the damage irrespective. Same goes for the sender seal as mentioned.
Phase separation cannot occur with conventional fuel, and conventional fuel does not attract moisture to the same extent as E10 does, also E10 has a scrubbing effect to clean the scum including varnish off inner tank walls and hoses which will pass through filters.
Water separating fuel filters like racors and others would block the water when picked up off the tank bottom, no such activity is likely with E10 once separation occurs.
Water is not as bad as 100% ahcohol dissolved water mix, which I understand is corrosive. Nothing wrong with burning water as long as dissolved in the gasoline part of fuel.
The advise about filling the tanks for off season storage was always that, with use of a fuel preservative, in part because an empty tank is one big bomb and less safe to be around should an ignition source find the wrong place, and also due to less inner surface area exposed to effcets of condensation from fdaily expansion and contractin such in air, and water subsequent build-up at bottom of tank.
Same advise from Yamaha is offered for my 2 stroke oil tank in boat and oil tank on motor, keep it full for off season to mitigate condensation effects.
To use the manual switch on the motor to over ride the hi cutoff and fill it all the way.
Up Date
I've spoken with two other authorized Yamaha delaers and they were told it's better to keep the tanks low or empty..... :roll:
I've spoken with two other authorized Yamaha delaers and they were told it's better to keep the tanks low or empty..... :roll:
BobP
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Empty is the best, though not practical since the pickup tube is an inch or so off the tank bottom.
a1mccray
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BabyG
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Midnightrider
I think your problem came about cause you had non treated gas sitting in the tank. So the boat sat for three months no big deal but when was that gas put in the tank? also you said tanks= 2, and you put in 80 gal? how are your tanks diveded? I have a gulf mine are 90 gal and a 50. Im thinking you had 10 gals of not treated gas sitting in a 90 gal tank for too long of a time and it separated. Not so sure what sea foam is i will google it after this. This is only a guess but from what I have seen once that gas separates it gets ugly
I think your problem came about cause you had non treated gas sitting in the tank. So the boat sat for three months no big deal but when was that gas put in the tank? also you said tanks= 2, and you put in 80 gal? how are your tanks diveded? I have a gulf mine are 90 gal and a 50. Im thinking you had 10 gals of not treated gas sitting in a 90 gal tank for too long of a time and it separated. Not so sure what sea foam is i will google it after this. This is only a guess but from what I have seen once that gas separates it gets ugly
I use to keep my tanks full. Until my tank leaked 60 gallons of fuel out of the drain hole one cold January day. What a mess....
I have only kept about 10 gallons of fuel in the tanks since then. I add stabile and have not had any problems.
Everyone has their own opinion. Do what you think is best for you.
Lenny
I have only kept about 10 gallons of fuel in the tanks since then. I add stabile and have not had any problems.
Everyone has their own opinion. Do what you think is best for you.
Lenny