Gentlemen: Most of you are already aware of the problems presented by using fuel with ethanol in it. I spent all day yesterday helping out a buddy who should have known better than to put ethanol fuel in his boat. We had to replace all his filters, fuel lines, take out his carburetors and clean them out. Even the needle valves had fuel line particles in them. He thought he would be okay by adding a highly touted fuel additive to his gas.......wrong. What a mess!
Ethanol gets another one
- Thread starter g0tagrip
- Start date
g0tagrip said:
So what are we supposed to do, give up boating? All we can buy in CA is ethanol blended gas and I have never had a problem. I use the BRP 2+4 additive every time and have left gas in the tank for at least 9 months without issue.
Parthery
GreatGrady Captain
It's either Ethanol problems or water problems. I just went through the same drill....
This is what the fuel looked like when the tank was pumped....
fuel sample 2.JPG by parthery, on Flickr
fuel sample 1.JPG by parthery, on Flickr
In my case, the water pooled in the indentation where the fuel filler is...it got past the fuel filler (which was missing it's o-ring) and into the tank. They estimated at least 2-3 gallons of water and about 30 gallons of gas.
I'm diligent with Ring Free and Sta-Bil....in my case there isn't enough Sta-Bil available to soak up that much water.
This is what the fuel looked like when the tank was pumped....
fuel sample 2.JPG by parthery, on Flickr
fuel sample 1.JPG by parthery, on Flickr
In my case, the water pooled in the indentation where the fuel filler is...it got past the fuel filler (which was missing it's o-ring) and into the tank. They estimated at least 2-3 gallons of water and about 30 gallons of gas.
I'm diligent with Ring Free and Sta-Bil....in my case there isn't enough Sta-Bil available to soak up that much water.
Water was not his problem, the ethanol ate his fuel lines up.
Possible solution for the California crowd, move to Florida?.....just kidding, keep on top of the ethanol and don't let it set too long.
Possible solution for the California crowd, move to Florida?.....just kidding, keep on top of the ethanol and don't let it set too long.
I really don't know what you guys doing wrong or don't do. For the last 10 years ??? i've been using gas with ethanol in it and never, ever had any problem with it. My boats sit sometimes for a month.The only thing i do ALL the time, no matter what, is i add Ring free AND Startron with any gas fill, all my boats had 250 gallon and bigger fuel tanks with no problems what so ever.
Parthery
GreatGrady Captain
In my case it was the sheer quantity that got in there....
I know we've had a lot of rain here, but I still wonder if I picked up some in a fuel up...trouble is I buy my fuel generally at Costco...they are pumping 15-20K gallons a day...and if that much water was in their system, my truck wouldn't have run, considering I fueled it at the same time I fueled the boat.
I know we've had a lot of rain here, but I still wonder if I picked up some in a fuel up...trouble is I buy my fuel generally at Costco...they are pumping 15-20K gallons a day...and if that much water was in their system, my truck wouldn't have run, considering I fueled it at the same time I fueled the boat.
g0tagrip said:
I have seen reports about problems with fuel lines failing internally on some of our local fishing sites. The problems mostly seemed to be with the grey EPA rated fuel lines when they first came out, the ones that were supposed to keeps fuel vapors from escaping thru the hose I think. The inner liners did disintegrate just like you said. I hate to admit it, but I still have the original black fuel lines that came with my boat and motor in 1994 and have not had a problem so far. I had to cut into one a couple of years ago to add a flow meter and it looked good as new on the inside.
I wonder if humidity in different parts of the country might not be a problem with getting water in the fuel? It's pretty low here so that might be another reason I've not had a problem.
Looks like phase separation to me. Here's a link showing what it looks like along with a description of how it happens: http://cleanfuelsnational.com/services/phase-separation-recovery/
As I understand it, if you've always used ethanol, you will have less chance of problems. Regular gasoline leaves a varnish in the tank, etc.. Alcohol disturbs/cleans the varnish, sending it through the fuel lines right into the engines where all he$$ breaks out. I'm hoping to avoid the crap as long as possible.
As I understand it, if you've always used ethanol, you will have less chance of problems. Regular gasoline leaves a varnish in the tank, etc.. Alcohol disturbs/cleans the varnish, sending it through the fuel lines right into the engines where all he$$ breaks out. I'm hoping to avoid the crap as long as possible.
ROBERTH
GreatGrady Captain
X2 with nothingelsematters! 
Ringfree plus and startron and no issues. Replaced all original fuel lines from 1992 and they were fine inside but figured time for new.
Ringfree plus and startron and no issues. Replaced all original fuel lines from 1992 and they were fine inside but figured time for new.
Additives do nothing for phase separation. I lost a 25 year old chainsaw to the stuff, a carb on a 3 year old riding mower and carb on a 1 year old weed-eater. If you ever once get acquainted up front, close and personal with that term, you won't soon forget it.
ROBERTH
GreatGrady Captain
Intention here in regards to additives is for prevention of issues when possible such as hose conditioning and minor water absorbsion. If I understood the reason for so mmuch water here was due to a leak which nothing will resolve other than removal.
That's fuel seperation in photos, very nasty stuff and corrosive - water and alcohol has combined and will stay that way.
That's what you look for in the racor clear fuel bowls, dark fuel.
When first using ethanol when regular fuel has been used, the ethanol scrubs the tank clean and the water at the bottom of all gas tanks then gets scavenged by the alcohol, too much and the seperation occurs. The particulates can be filtered - use the larger filters like racors up front first in line. The small ones at the motor are overwelmed.
I use the 2 micron racors with no back pressure issues, but the 10 are recommended by Yamaha.
When converting to ethanol - change out all fuel lines first. The new materials can handle it.
Change out O rings periodically on fuel ports (every 3 yrs) , and regularly wipe clean the o ring groove on both contact sides. Inpsect each time opened for cuts on surface.
During seasonal times of condensation (as found on car or boat in the AM or PM - soaking wet), you are vulnerable to condensation internal tank walls above fuel line. Keep tanks full(er) than empty(ier) duing these seasons in particular, use fuel stabilizer always. I use marine Stabil.
Buy fuel in recommended stations, water can be pumped into your boat from fuel dock and you will not be able to prove it nonetheless have big problem expenses.
It's been some time since ethanol took over in NY downstate area (12 yrs now or so (?)), same problems occurred which included blown motors new ones too, desintegrating fuel lines to a point of ply seperation and collapse internal, turining to goo, clogged up fuel systems on motors, and melting fibergass tanks in Bertrams that resulted in resin coated valve stems that cripped motors to limited RPM.
It has been advised when conveting to ethanol to suck clean any fuel in existing tanks, this can be done via fuel level flange removal and insert tube to bottom rear, be careful doing this, no sparks.
These is a regulatory law in place for some time now for manufacturers to close our fuel systems just like have been in cars since the 70s, with a mandated implementation date, which I can't recall at the moment. When this is done the internal condensation source will be ended.
Tend to use you fuel load in a way that it is periodically refreshed with new fuel vs. hanging around older fuel longer. Which means for me based on my trips I refuel at about 80-90 gallons down use fuel managemnet gauge and run about no more than 80% full (main tank) to economize by avoiding excess weight.
Good luck.
That's what you look for in the racor clear fuel bowls, dark fuel.
When first using ethanol when regular fuel has been used, the ethanol scrubs the tank clean and the water at the bottom of all gas tanks then gets scavenged by the alcohol, too much and the seperation occurs. The particulates can be filtered - use the larger filters like racors up front first in line. The small ones at the motor are overwelmed.
I use the 2 micron racors with no back pressure issues, but the 10 are recommended by Yamaha.
When converting to ethanol - change out all fuel lines first. The new materials can handle it.
Change out O rings periodically on fuel ports (every 3 yrs) , and regularly wipe clean the o ring groove on both contact sides. Inpsect each time opened for cuts on surface.
During seasonal times of condensation (as found on car or boat in the AM or PM - soaking wet), you are vulnerable to condensation internal tank walls above fuel line. Keep tanks full(er) than empty(ier) duing these seasons in particular, use fuel stabilizer always. I use marine Stabil.
Buy fuel in recommended stations, water can be pumped into your boat from fuel dock and you will not be able to prove it nonetheless have big problem expenses.
It's been some time since ethanol took over in NY downstate area (12 yrs now or so (?)), same problems occurred which included blown motors new ones too, desintegrating fuel lines to a point of ply seperation and collapse internal, turining to goo, clogged up fuel systems on motors, and melting fibergass tanks in Bertrams that resulted in resin coated valve stems that cripped motors to limited RPM.
It has been advised when conveting to ethanol to suck clean any fuel in existing tanks, this can be done via fuel level flange removal and insert tube to bottom rear, be careful doing this, no sparks.
These is a regulatory law in place for some time now for manufacturers to close our fuel systems just like have been in cars since the 70s, with a mandated implementation date, which I can't recall at the moment. When this is done the internal condensation source will be ended.
Tend to use you fuel load in a way that it is periodically refreshed with new fuel vs. hanging around older fuel longer. Which means for me based on my trips I refuel at about 80-90 gallons down use fuel managemnet gauge and run about no more than 80% full (main tank) to economize by avoiding excess weight.
Good luck.
If you get enough water in the tank, you will get separation with E10. Regardless of E10 or not, excess water in the tank will be an issue.
Note that when drygas is added to non ethanol gas as many folks did in the past, it posed the same potential issues with respect to hoses and suck that didn't like alcohol compounds. As I have said many times before, E10 gas cab tolerate a little water better than non-e10 since it absorbs about 1/2% by volume.
Most if not all of the boats I see with water in the fuel issues are due to either water intrusion into the tank, usually from a defective filler cap or vent, or a bad load of fuel. I am seeing more of that after Sandy. It appears that some fuel stations that were flooded got water in their tanks.
Yes I have seen boats with decaying/internally collapsing fuel lines but all of those were pretty old hoses.
I also hear often about breakdowns that occur after a good intentioned boater adds a 'lot' of fuel additives especially to decarb. In many cases, the motor ran fine before the process. Loosening up a lot of gunk at one time can cause major problems to fuel components. There is no substitute for fresh gas. If you are not going to use a full tank, don't fill. I try to add new gas to cover my next two trips. My tank is rarely more than half full at the start of an outing ( Yes I have plenty of gas for my planned outing).
That also saves fuel since I am not hauling the extra weight.
Note that when drygas is added to non ethanol gas as many folks did in the past, it posed the same potential issues with respect to hoses and suck that didn't like alcohol compounds. As I have said many times before, E10 gas cab tolerate a little water better than non-e10 since it absorbs about 1/2% by volume.
Most if not all of the boats I see with water in the fuel issues are due to either water intrusion into the tank, usually from a defective filler cap or vent, or a bad load of fuel. I am seeing more of that after Sandy. It appears that some fuel stations that were flooded got water in their tanks.
Yes I have seen boats with decaying/internally collapsing fuel lines but all of those were pretty old hoses.
I also hear often about breakdowns that occur after a good intentioned boater adds a 'lot' of fuel additives especially to decarb. In many cases, the motor ran fine before the process. Loosening up a lot of gunk at one time can cause major problems to fuel components. There is no substitute for fresh gas. If you are not going to use a full tank, don't fill. I try to add new gas to cover my next two trips. My tank is rarely more than half full at the start of an outing ( Yes I have plenty of gas for my planned outing).
That also saves fuel since I am not hauling the extra weight.