Florida Boat Tragedy: Question about radio contact off shore

Z4J

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When we fly we always file a flight plan with the field.
We also obtain Air Traffic Control clearance.
They have our flight plan, they clear us through the various sectors and we keep in touch with ATC during the flight.
We are not alone; someone else knows where we are.

When we go out in our boat, we “usually tell someone” where we are going and than we go, no clearance, no plan necessary.
It is a little scary when we are out on the ocean and realize that we are out of touch with the people who we told of our trip.

Question to the fisherman on this board that go way out;
how far can you trust your hardwired VHF radio and your handheld VHF radio? Do you always carry an EPIRB ?
 

gradyfish22

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There are a lot of things that vary here. Is the vhf radio a handheld or a fix mount? A fixed mount will ALWAYS transmit further then a handheld for 2 reason's, 1 is power output, a fixed mount is more powerful and can transmit further for that reason, and a handheld is going to be lower in the boat then a fixed mount antenna. The higher up your antenna the further it will transmit. This is why some boats put their antennas on top of towers, or mount them on arches or hardtops. Other factors involve how good of a connection you have, corrosion will cut down on transmission distance, as will weather. Inclimate weather will cut down on a waves traveled distance. At some point, you have to take into account the curvature of the earth, depending on how high the antenna is off the boat, you might get anyways from 30-50miles of range from a fixed mount. A hand held will be about 20miles roughly. I have 8' antennas ontop of my hardtop on my 265 Express and I can radio somewhere from 35-45miles out and still catch convos at inlets that are straight in from me. It really depends on sea state and weather conditions. On rougher or overcast days my transmission distance drops a little bit. I've been on large sportfishermen where we've heard convo's 50 miles out, but these are antennas on BIG tower's on 60-80ft boats, you won't get that distance from any Grady.

As for transmitting emergencies, some coast guard stations have repeater antennas that are mounted really high in the air so if your inlet or port has a station near by your range for emergencies will increase since the antenna your transmitting to is maybe 100-200ft in the air. Last season we had to make a call to the CG after we saw a flare shot off on our way out tuna fishing, we were about 45 miles offshore at the time on a clear day, but before sunrise and had a perfect 45min long convo with the USCG giving them details of the event, countless bearing numbers, speeds, angles of sight, gps and loran coordinates as well as other pertainent information. After going through that, I know just how much effort the CG puts into a search and how maticulous they are with records and tracking.
It is a shame what happent o this crew. If your venturing more then 10 miles offshore on a regular basis, you really need something more then a handheld vhf as your back up. You should ahve one anyways since a fixed mount might become useless if the boat capsizes and now can nolonger transmit. An Epirb is the best bet, but if it is not in your budegt, a PLB can help for elss money, but understand with one you get a cheaper version of a piece of equipment that could save you. A PLB will have trouble broadcasting while floating in rough seas unless your nearby, this is why they are great for man overboard situations, but for a crew, you want something you can have float next to you and transmit perfectly without worrying if the signal is getting out. Just about every PLB I have seen reviews on need to be held 3 ft in the air to transmit without any intermitance, try holding anything over your head while floating...not something I'd want to do. Another cheaper tool is a SPOT, they are good, but have the same issue as the PLB, they have issues sometimes transmitting all the time, but the benefit is ou can not only send out an emergency signal, you can message family or friends who know where you are who can notify authorities, now you have 2 pieces of information to help them search, your given location and where you should be, might give the CG a better idea of what they are dealing with and how to deal with it best. Other important things to have are flares, night strobe beacons, and good PFD's. A night beacon can help the CG find you at night much easier, and flares can get you noticed when communication is difficult. I carry 2 sets of flares, one in my ditch bag and 1 in the boat with a float attached so I can dive under and retrieve it if necessary, storing them in your cabin is a bad idea, you want them somewhere you can dive under to quickly and retrieve, last thing you want is to be in a cabin underwater. In addition to PFD's, add glow sticks to each by a tag line, this will give you light to atleast see underwater or to keep the crew close together at night.

When I venture offshore, i always know other boats going, I have a large database of buddies who fish, some I have known for years, other's I've met 1 or 2 times, but if I know any are going out those days as well, I call them before, give them my rough trip itinerary as well as theirs and make sure we make contact out on the water, even if we leave from different ports. Not only does this help you find fish easier having more guys out there, but if something goes wrong you have someone who knows your there and can radio you. When we leave to head in, we all let each other know, and soon as we hit the dock we call to make sure they made it, if not we would radio authorities of details.
 

Z4J

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GPIRB

Thanks for the detailed comeback, I think our VHF range is less than 30 miles.

We have been considering buying an Epirb with GPS but thought the price a little high for an instrument we may never use.

However the tragedy in Florida makes us think twice. When you add up the cost of the fishing gear, the radar, the fishfinders, the displays and all the other electronics, than the the Epirb sounds like a very reasonable investment.
 

megabytes

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ACR has a 406 EPIRB w/o GPS which is less expensive. I have the same model from before the days GPS was available in the units. I sent a friend the link from CME where it is available for around $525.

Pretty cheap life insurance IMHO.
 

gerrys

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Re: GPIRB

Z4J said:
We have been considering buying an Epirb with GPS but thought the price a little high for an instrument we may never use.

If you get into trouble out there, no price will be too high.

Just because you can hear someone on a VHF radio, doesn't mean they're able to hear you. They may be broadcasting from a higher platform, at a greater power or with a more efficient antenna.

An EPIRB w/ integral GPS would have given the CG a fix on the Florida guys within an hour.

A second issue is that the family didn't call the USCG until 1-2 AM, well after they were due to return. Valuable time lost there, too. I tell my wife where I'm going, even if I stay inshore. I also tell her when to expect me back off the water. It's a simple but a safe play.
 

Grog

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VHF is basically line of sight. There are times where the right conditions exist and 100 miles is possible but the waves have to bounce off clouds just right. The CG tower in Manasquan is 300' high so it gives that extra distance but it's still not that much more. There is a formula sqrt [2x(combined ant. heights)]. A 300' tower talking to your boat with a 20' ant. has a 25 mile range. You might get a little more with the right conditions but don't count on it.

Even an EPIRB without GPS stills lets the authorities know you're in trouble and the ball stats rolling. They cannot locate you the same as if it had the GPS but they have the general vicinity. If you're close to shore with a lot of boats in the area, you may not need the EPIRB or PLB. But if you can't see land think about one.

Also STAY WITH THE BOAT (unless it's on fire but at least it's a big flare). They can spot a boat a lot easier than a person.
 

gradyfish22

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also as a side note....Grady's are foam filled....do NOT buy an Epirb with a hydro static release...it needs to sink about 3m to deploy, so it would remain attached to the boat and never go off, you need a manual release for a Grady. Last season an Egg Harbor sank...but the hardtop floated, that was where the epirb was, never went off, luckily they had a vhf and gps in the ditch bag and were able to call for help...less then 1 hour in the water and they were saved by a nearby boat.
 

jekyl

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In Oz it is illegal to venture more than 3nm. offshore without a gps epirb.

We have a volunteer coast guard that we log trip sheets with whenever we are offshore.

I have always had 2 vhf's plus now a handheld as well . I have been in bad conditions (which is usually when stuff breaks down) with a faulty VHF and it was not something I wish to repeat.

It's like insurance: if you don't want to spend the money on it then you probably shouldn't spend the money on the boat in the first place.
 

Southern Hunter

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An EPIRB is 500-1000K that......I hope I never have to use...but in the event that I need it, it is worth a ton more than that!!! It's a rich man's game.....with the amount of money we spend on everything to be out there...it is down right dumb not to have an EPIRB!
 

gradyfish22

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$800 for an Epirb with internal GPS, no need to plug into your gps with a chord, it gets it itself when activated. A standard HX850S is a great piece of equipment, just purchased one, hand held vhf radio with built in gps. Only 1 piece of equipment to charge and maintain for $250, well worth it. Also, can never have enough vhf radio's on a boat.

Hayden, I love the idea of having to file with the coast guard, they would never have to look at it unless you were reported missing, would easily give them a better seach area, especially if they cannot reach someone with the float plan. Would be an easy form to fill out online. also love the idea of having to have an Epirb is venturing offshore...3nm might be a bit tight, but maybe 10-15 would be realistic for us. Would love to see something like this implemented here in the US!!
 

Fishermanbb

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I think the reason so many people end up going out without the proper safety equipment has more to do with people not believing anything will really go wrong other than maybe an engine breakdown - Think about it...How many boaters spend an extra 20K to get twins just so they don't get stuck....Because they have probably had an engine break down before.....Very few people have had an actual emergency out there so they don't believe it will ever happen......

I don't care how experienced you are.....Your safety and the safety of your crew and potential rescuers is your responsibility....Not having the right gear is - As stated above - Just dumb....We go out 20 - 70 miles regularly....It's only a 36 foot boat We always carry the following:

1 standard VHF radio with DSC - connected to the GPS
1 high power VHF that will only get used in an emergency (Icom Commercial)
1 Hydro release Epirb with GPS mounted on the hardtop
1 hydro release Liferaft - Mounted on the hardtop
ALL Cat1 offshore life vests
Duct tape
Wooden dowels
Ditch bag with handheld VHF, handheld GPS,personal Epirb with GPS and all the other "Trimmings"

I'll bet the added cost of the extra VHF, liferaft, Epirb, ditch bag, etc totals less than 6K.....Yes that is a lot of $$....No we'll probably never need it.....But we've got more than that in fishing rods.....I know I'm on a soapbox but I believe it's irresponsible to go offshore without all of that stuff.......
 

gradyfish22

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This was asked above. Here are formula's for typical VHF antenna's to figure out range.

3dB (height in ft above water)x 1.15=nm range

6dB (height in ft above water)x 1.42=nm range

9dB (height in ft above water)x 1.52=nm range

A typical 8' antenna which is likely what most of us have are 6dB antennas, one some of the bigger express's with the 17.5 or 23ft antenna's, those are typically 9dB

So figure your antenna mounts about 8 ft above the waterline, add another 8ft in length, that is 16ft. Gives you 22.72nm range

This is to an object that is on the horizon, if your radioing an antenna on a boat higher up, this will increase a little, and a 200-300ft antenna a little more, but only a few miles.
 

jekyl

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Another great thing about our volunteer Coast guard is that as members we have a number on file that tells them everything they need to know about the boat as well as the tow vehicle if there is one, as well as nearest of kin to contact.
When we leave port I log in on the VHF tell them membership # numbers of POB, destination and eta back in port.
When we get back in we log off . If we are not back inside the designated time they will call us and if no response they call other vessels in the area to see if we have been sighted; and then if that's a negative , carpark is checked for car and trailer; if they are there, then search begins.
As we don't have seatow these guys also do that ......an awesome job from volunteers.
 

gradyfish22

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Yes they do rent them but it is garbage...how many fishermen can honestly plan a trip 3 weeks in advance, you have to rent it way in advance to get it on time usually. It is a great servce, but does not work out as well we it could, most stores do not have them locally, they get mailed to you. I know when we go to the canyon's we never know weather until about a week before, and even then it changes, and by that time it is too late to order one and get one usually. And if you get washed out you paid for nothing. Unless your going on a trip to the bahama's or along the ICW or have the trip planned a few months early, this service does you no good. To the typical boater this is not beneficial nor practical. I am not putting Boat US down, it is great they offer this service, but to many boaters it does not well suit our needs, and it would be hard for Boat US to be able to offer a service that would benefit everyone and not lose a bundle on it.
 

jimfish

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Being in South Florida and with Bahamas trips a big thing here, I was thinking what a good thing it is to have EPIRBS available on a rental basis. Usually, trips are planned in advance and the weather is generally very stable in the late Spring and early Summer - at least well into July.
("Generally very stable..." being the operative phrase). For fishermen there is a different issue, and they would no sooner rent rods and tackle before each trip than rent an EPIRB each time they go out.
We are talking of two hugely different needs - the occasional offshore cruisers making a trip to the Islands who need not make that BIG investment for a once a year (or so) trip - as opposed to the fishing group for whom a rental would not be practical. If I were in the second group, regularly (more or less, even) running 50 miles out to the canyon or wherever, an EPIRB would be absolutely part of my safety equipment - along with my offshore life jackets, two radios, two flare guns, etc. etc. in my (floating) ditch bag.
It is not so common anymore, but I STILL know boaters who venture offshore without a VHF radio, saying that a cell phone is adequate and they do not want to spend even $100 or so (plus antenna) for that radio!! $50K, $100K or so for the boat, but draw the line at critical safety equipment!!
As the Aussie gent wrote, EPIRBS should be STANDARD safety equipment on any boat that is headed offshore, IMHO.
 

Grouper Duper

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In this particular instance, I don't see how the range of a VHF makes any difference. I live where this happened, so have seen more news than most (in fact, two of the news choppers are my tenants at the airport). These guys were capsized while attempting to pull anchor. They didn't know or expect to be in that amount of danger until the boat was already upside down; no VHF antenna poking DOWN into the water is going to broadcast far, and they were well out of range for a handheld anyway. Also, who could swim UNDER an overturned boat tossing in nasty seas and even try to work a radio IF it were still working?

I agree an EPIRB would have given them a much better shot, but overall it seems preventing the incident altogether was WAY safer and cheaper. I wanted to go fishing last weekend myself, and decided against it two days in advance, based on the weather approaching Saturday afternoon.

I feel for these guys, though. We've even sent one of our pilots out in a Cessna 182 to help in the search after the Coast Guard stopped. That came after some contact with the family, that still wants at least recovery.

Play safe, guys.
 

jimfish

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No doubt that going out with the weather that was forecast was not prudent. I read where waves were running 6-8 ft. and later even 15 ft.
(that what was in the news here in the Vero Beach area, anyway). Not when they went out, but certainly bad weather and winds were in the forecast.
Still, preventing the incident is hindsight in the sense that this, like most, was due to a fatal series of decisions and occurrences that combined to be fatal. Go out? / NOT go out? Pull anchor? / CUT anchor line and get away (don't know if they were anchored by the bow or stern, but you likely do). Etc. etc. Usually, everything has to come together exactly wrong to result in disaster.
In hindsight, which is always the best sight of course, investing in a LAST RESORT safety item such as an EPIRB looks very cheap, indeed.
Once the boat flipped, they were out of options as far as calling for rescue / help was concerned. The EPIRB would have given that final option and likely saved their lives.
 

Gman25

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gradyfish22 said:
Yes they do rent them but it is garbage...how many fishermen can honestly plan a trip 3 weeks in advance

Boatus will ship to you when you need it. They offer 3 days or more to overnight
 

my retreat

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Spot Device

I have a SPOT device that works real well in tracking your position and is much lower in cost. This does not auto send signals but would have worked great for the men in Florida! Just a good int rem device if you can't spend the money for the hydro activated epirb.

I agree that you spend what ever you can afford to have the right safety equipment.