I've been putting in Pri-G, Startron, and Yamaha Ringfree. Is the Pri-G a waste if using the Startron for fuel stabilization? Is the Startron a truel stabilizer or just for preventing the breakdown of E10?
Fuel Additive Over-kill? Question...
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been using pri-g only for four years with every fill up its a stabilzer and soft carbon remover also helps prevent separation with e10, cylds look good and clean so far. yam. 200s
Gman25
GreatGrady Captain
Bob Hewes, before ethanol, told me Pri G is the best additive he'd ever seen. Reversed gumming in stored motors.
I had dramatic ethanol problems on my 17 Mako with 2005 DFI. Prior to using e-10 I had changed to 10 micron filter and over applied Startron. Had to replace the filter after 10 hrs. Thought I was then safe.
NOOOOOO! Later had to pump out the tank after being towed in on opening day of FL lobster season. That was after changing filter upon stalling. Only been using non e fuel since.
Based on that I never introduced non e to my Sailfish.
There are now a number of land based non e dealers at about $1/ gal less than marinas.
Also some websites that list these dealers nationwide.
My local OMC mech states that his customers that use BP & mobil have never had an e-10 problem.
I had dramatic ethanol problems on my 17 Mako with 2005 DFI. Prior to using e-10 I had changed to 10 micron filter and over applied Startron. Had to replace the filter after 10 hrs. Thought I was then safe.
NOOOOOO! Later had to pump out the tank after being towed in on opening day of FL lobster season. That was after changing filter upon stalling. Only been using non e fuel since.
Based on that I never introduced non e to my Sailfish.
There are now a number of land based non e dealers at about $1/ gal less than marinas.
Also some websites that list these dealers nationwide.
My local OMC mech states that his customers that use BP & mobil have never had an e-10 problem.
I have used Pri-G and Ring Free religiously every tank for the last three years. No problems with the fuel system. I don't think you need both Star Tron & Pri-G. I'm sure one or the other would be enough.
If using both simultaneously, why not reduce the volumes of each to 1/2 the bottle specifications? Why spend more $ for the same benefit. We need all the extra $ for gas now. I have always used Ringfree and on occasion use startron.
Gman25
GreatGrady Captain
1st grady said:
Yup that makes sense, but I have been putting in startron and ringfree's recommended dosage since new and I have NEVER had an issue. I would be kicking myself in the ass if I decided to cut back to save a few bucks...then one day I now have problems.. :bang ..This will be my first year using the ringfree with E10 additive(i bought a case of it)and I still plan on using startron. I bought the diesel startron recently and was told by people in the know (including startron themselves) that its the same stuff as the gas additive just more concentrated so you can use less.
'05 300 Marlin F250's
Doc Stressor
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You could probably do just fine with just the PRI-G. It contains anti-oxidants (fuel stabilizers) and the Shell version of the carbon removal additive found in Ringfree. However, the new Ringfree Plus also contains components (metal filmers) that are engineered to protect soft metals from ethanol related corrosion. Ringfree alone is not a fuel stabilizer.
Products such as PRI-G and StaBil have been in use as fuel stabilizers for a long time. They have been been proved to work well in for that application. Similarly, the Techron additives used in Ringfree are well established products.
I have my doubts about Startron. If someone could explain to me how "enzymes" can do any of the things that they claim when contained in a non-aqueous environment (that is, a solvent other than water), I might have more confidence in the product. However, the manufacturer doesn't explain how their product works, at least to the satisfaction of this molecular biologist. So you have to use the product on faith alone.
E10 can solve almost all of the problems that is causes without any additional additives. It will eventually clean out your tank and fuel system if you keep using. Dry E10 will also remove more water from a wet tank than any fuel additive that you can buy. So Startron might be given credit for solving ethanol problems that were resolving on their own. No additive can prevent phase separation unless you use way more than the recommended treatment level.
The problem for us is that the industry will not allow a direct comparison of the various products. Whenever one company publishes a comparison of their product with another, they immediately get sued.
Adding anything more than a stabilizer and a detergent is a waste of money. And if you run your boat a lot year round and use a Top Tier gasoline, you don't need to use any additives.
Products such as PRI-G and StaBil have been in use as fuel stabilizers for a long time. They have been been proved to work well in for that application. Similarly, the Techron additives used in Ringfree are well established products.
I have my doubts about Startron. If someone could explain to me how "enzymes" can do any of the things that they claim when contained in a non-aqueous environment (that is, a solvent other than water), I might have more confidence in the product. However, the manufacturer doesn't explain how their product works, at least to the satisfaction of this molecular biologist. So you have to use the product on faith alone.
E10 can solve almost all of the problems that is causes without any additional additives. It will eventually clean out your tank and fuel system if you keep using. Dry E10 will also remove more water from a wet tank than any fuel additive that you can buy. So Startron might be given credit for solving ethanol problems that were resolving on their own. No additive can prevent phase separation unless you use way more than the recommended treatment level.
The problem for us is that the industry will not allow a direct comparison of the various products. Whenever one company publishes a comparison of their product with another, they immediately get sued.
Adding anything more than a stabilizer and a detergent is a waste of money. And if you run your boat a lot year round and use a Top Tier gasoline, you don't need to use any additives.
Docstressor,
As a recovering biologist myself I have often wondered what secret enzymes there are in Star Tron...kind of like the same enzymes that are put in high end shampoos I imagine :wink: As you know enzymes which are made of amino acid chains are used by cells to either put stuff together or take things apart in a rapid fashion for cellular growth and respiration..if I am recalling my microbiology well here.
Maybe, just maybe Star Tron has some form an enzyme that breaks down the ethanol chain apart in the fuel or attaches itself to the hydroxy (OH) side of the ethanol to neutralize it. Maybe they use e. coli or someting to create the enzyme and then extract it from the cells and or synthesize it in mass and add it to their fuel elixir? It could be possible to add an enzyme that is catalytic in fashion to the fuel to neutralize the ethanol to some degree. While the enzymes are part of a living cell, they themselves are not living anymore than the protein in my mahi mahi is "living" when I take it off the grill... it was alive and is organic that is for certain...anyway...maybe Star Tron does have an enzyme they add to their mixture? I dont use Star Tron so this is purely a hypothetical kind of answer to your points about the enzyme in the fuel additive...
As a recovering biologist myself I have often wondered what secret enzymes there are in Star Tron...kind of like the same enzymes that are put in high end shampoos I imagine :wink: As you know enzymes which are made of amino acid chains are used by cells to either put stuff together or take things apart in a rapid fashion for cellular growth and respiration..if I am recalling my microbiology well here.
Maybe, just maybe Star Tron has some form an enzyme that breaks down the ethanol chain apart in the fuel or attaches itself to the hydroxy (OH) side of the ethanol to neutralize it. Maybe they use e. coli or someting to create the enzyme and then extract it from the cells and or synthesize it in mass and add it to their fuel elixir? It could be possible to add an enzyme that is catalytic in fashion to the fuel to neutralize the ethanol to some degree. While the enzymes are part of a living cell, they themselves are not living anymore than the protein in my mahi mahi is "living" when I take it off the grill... it was alive and is organic that is for certain...anyway...maybe Star Tron does have an enzyme they add to their mixture? I dont use Star Tron so this is purely a hypothetical kind of answer to your points about the enzyme in the fuel additive...
Doc Stressor
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Enzymes can do some things that would be helpful in a fuel additive. Some can catalyze the breakdown of oxygen free radicals, which would inhibit fuel oxidation. Other proteins can bind metals that would otherwise accelerate oxidation. Lipoproteins could potentially act as water emulsifying agents, provided that could add enough to a mixture of gasoline and water.
But the problem is that the surface chemistry of enzymes requires an aqueous environment. They require water, not a hydrophobic solvent such as gasoline. Most proteins are not soluble in gasoline or even ethanol for that matter. Since undiluted Startron contains less that 0.5% active ingredients dissolved in a petroleum distillate carrier, you have to wonder how it could contain anything that would work when diluted into a tank of fuel.
Starton is manufactured by a company called Solpower Corporation using a technology developed by the Japanese Institute of Bio-Energy. If you do a search for that company, you will find some more information on the product than is provided by Starbrite. The enzymes are supposed to inhibit the agglomeration of asphaltenes, which are the oxidation products that form gum and varnish in stale fuel. They are also supposed to be able to dissolve small varnish particles if they are suspended in the fuel. Interestingly, they indicate that the product only stabilizes fuel for a maximum of 6 month in a vented tank. They also say that their product can be tested using the standard ASTM forced oxidation test, since enzymes are inactivated by high temperature. So you just have to take their word for it that the product will stabilize fuel.
There are proteins with enzyme activity that would be soluble in gasoline. Membrane proteins that contain attached lipid molecules would have such properties. But the enzyme activities would still require water for most of the reactions that they would catalyze. There may be exceptions such as enzymes secreted by oil degrading organisms. But that is a technology that is pretty far out there right now.
Scientists are necessarily septics. Unless empirical data are produced that can demonstrate the effectiveness of a product with seemingly "magical" properties, I won't be a believer. I can find no patents associated with this product, which increases my skepticism.
But the problem is that the surface chemistry of enzymes requires an aqueous environment. They require water, not a hydrophobic solvent such as gasoline. Most proteins are not soluble in gasoline or even ethanol for that matter. Since undiluted Startron contains less that 0.5% active ingredients dissolved in a petroleum distillate carrier, you have to wonder how it could contain anything that would work when diluted into a tank of fuel.
Starton is manufactured by a company called Solpower Corporation using a technology developed by the Japanese Institute of Bio-Energy. If you do a search for that company, you will find some more information on the product than is provided by Starbrite. The enzymes are supposed to inhibit the agglomeration of asphaltenes, which are the oxidation products that form gum and varnish in stale fuel. They are also supposed to be able to dissolve small varnish particles if they are suspended in the fuel. Interestingly, they indicate that the product only stabilizes fuel for a maximum of 6 month in a vented tank. They also say that their product can be tested using the standard ASTM forced oxidation test, since enzymes are inactivated by high temperature. So you just have to take their word for it that the product will stabilize fuel.
There are proteins with enzyme activity that would be soluble in gasoline. Membrane proteins that contain attached lipid molecules would have such properties. But the enzyme activities would still require water for most of the reactions that they would catalyze. There may be exceptions such as enzymes secreted by oil degrading organisms. But that is a technology that is pretty far out there right now.
Scientists are necessarily septics. Unless empirical data are produced that can demonstrate the effectiveness of a product with seemingly "magical" properties, I won't be a believer. I can find no patents associated with this product, which increases my skepticism.
Well Doc & Smoky Mtn Grady, I can't say I understand much of what you are saying but I think it's a given that guys that run Startron with every tankfull almost NEVER (from what I've read) have problems associated with ethanol fuel. The guys that say they've had problems while using Startron usually had the problem prior to using and hoped Starton would cure it. Maybe all that enzyme stuff is just voodu, but the stuff does work. And...you can get it at Walmart!!