phase separation

[CKJR]

Added 36 gallons to main tank last week, started engines this week and the dreaded phase separation happened!! must have picked up moisture on last fillup. This killed my low pressure pumps on the f225. My question, this winter i will pump out the main tank. Can the upper gasoline part be burned in my car if mixed with fresh fuel?

 

[Hookup1]

I am in the process now of cleaning up my phase separation problem. I hooked up a automotive fuel pump to the primer bulb with a long hose. This allows me to pull fuel thru the Yamaha filter.

My Dodge Durango runs on regular gasoline. With the boat on the trailer and the truck alongside I started pumping and made sure the fuel was clear (it was) and carefully filled the truck. So far I have used 50 gallons without problems. Another 50 gallons to go.

My engines seem to be running fine. What were the symptoms of the low pressure pump? How did it go bad?

 

[Capt. B]

Pardon my ignorance but what is "phase separation"?

 

[sfc2113]

Pardon my ignorance but what is "phase separation"?

From americanfuels.info

Phase separation occurs when the water content reaches the maximum amount that the gasoline blend can dissolve, any additional water will separate from the gasoline. , if the only source of water is from moisture in the air, phase separation is unlikely to occur due to the length of time required.


For example, at a constant temperature of 100 degrees F and relative humidity of 100%, it would take well over 200 days to saturate one gallon of gasoline in an open gasoline can (assuming the only source of water is water vapor from the air). Water absorption from the air is far slower at lower temperatures and humidities. (At a temperature of 70 degrees and relative humidity of 70%, it would take over two years to saturate one gallon of conventional gasoline in the same gasoline can.) Again, oxygenated gasolines can hold more water than conventional gasoline, and would therefore take much longer to saturate with water.


Aslo check this out from the EPA

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/fuels/rfg/waterphs.pdf

 

[CKJR]

phase separation occurs when ethonol in the gasoline separates and falls to the bottom of the tank as water/alcohol and the gas floats on top. I was reading up on it and it takes 3 tablespoons of water per gallon depending on certain conditions to cause this (ethonol is alcohol which is water based). My simptoms were the engine started and idled for 3 minutes until the separated fuel made it to the engine-then stalled and couldnt be restarted. I switched tanks which had fresh gas and tried to flush thru as much as possible also draining the vst tank. still no start, found out the low pressure fuse was blown, aded a new one-also blew. found out that water and these pumps dont like each other. well added a new low pressure pump and she runs fine now.

 

[Capt. B]

Is this something a fuel/water separator such as a Racor would eliminate? I had a near sinking this year and the water level on the starboard gunnel got so high that water found its way into my fuel tanks through the breather/overflow outlets. Engines started fine and ran fine as well. When I winterized I drained about 8 oz. of water from each filter. Having worked at both auto and aviation fuel distribution centers, seems to me as though water contamination in fuel can happen in a variety of ways especially in a watersports environment.

 

[CKJR]

i also had racors and that didnt help since the fuel flowing was mostly the water/ethanol mix, filled the racors and made its way to the motor

 

[JUST-IN-TIME]

if it coming from the gas cap o-rings

also you want a loop in the vent line

they have new water traps out now from perko

 

[midnight-rider]

It happen to me

I had just added 60 plus gallons. My boat had been sitting for 2 months. The Stablizer I added didn't help. The dealer had ro replace fuel pumps, tanks were cleaned. I wish I had ask about removing the old fuel and burning it in my truck, Lawn equiptment etc. This web site is very helpful thanks to all.

 

[Hookup1]

There are several problems with the ethanol / gasoline combo if enough water gets in.

The image on the right is what my fuel looked like when I dumped the filters. Fuel was cloudy - an emulsion of gasoline and the separated out ethanol / water. If allowed to sit a minuite you could see water/ethanol dropping out. The fuel at the top does not have ANY ethanol left in it.

I tested the "clean" fuel by mixing 9 parts fuel with 1 part water in a jar and shaking. With new E10 fuel you get 8.1 parts fuel and 1.9 water / ethanol. With my fuel I got 9:1. All the ethanol was removed from the fuel.

While ethanol can safely absorb 0.5 percent ethyl alcohol into a solution, the water reduces the motor fuel BTU content and octane rating, again affecting the consumer. When ethanol absorbs more than 0.5 percent of alcohol, a “phase-separation” will occur as the alcohol begins to drop out of the gasohol solution into the water bottom of the tank.

The fuel at the top does not have ethanol in it and is lower in octane than the original fuel.

The ethanol water mixture at the bottom is corossive and your engine can't run on it. Adding more fuel will not reverse this and it will accumulate in the bottom of your tank. Bouncing the boat around on a long run may emusify the stuff (cloudy fuel) and let you burn it. I'm sure its not good for your engine! I think thats what happed to all the ethanol in my fuel.

 

[sfc2113]

I see some Racor filters have a drain water alarm or water alarms sensors, but am wonder if it was possible to install some kind of inline sensor that put out an alarm when it detects water in the fuel line as it is flowing to the engine.

 

[Hookup1]

Water Alarms

I'm not sure what the water alarms "see" when the water is mixed with a significant about of ethanol. The density or conductivity may be more like fuel than water and not trigger an alarm. I know on my boat I didn't get an alarm - the engines started running like crap and stalled.

I found another interesting article: "Pain in the Gas". Page 8

http://www.uscgboating.org/assets/pdf/recalls/BSC85_1.pdf

The problem for the
ethanol alternative comes with “phase separation.”
That’s what happens when the fuel is saturated beyond
its capacity to hold water in solution. The water and
gasoline actually separate, and the gasoline floats on
top of the water. With MTBE you could simply pump
the water out from under the gasoline, or let your
filters remove the water, and burn any gasoline that
remained. With E10, ethanol blends more easily with
water than it does with gasoline. When phase
separation occurs in E10, the ethanol is pulled out of
the gas and stays with the water. This result is two
solutions, neither of which is good for engine or fuel
system. The gasoline left behind now has no
oxygenate; it shouldn’t be burned in the engine and
must be disposed of. The water left behind now
contains a high concentration of ethanol; this solution
is highly corrosive and damaging to any materials it
may be in contact with in the fuel system. The only
solution to dealing with E10 that has phase separated
is to dispose of the whole load of fuel, clean the tank,
and start fresh with a new load of E10.
...
E10’s ability to absorb water has yet another
drawback: it can absorb water directly from the
atmosphere through the vent while simply sitting in
the tank. In just 100 days at 70% humidity, E10 can
absorb enough water to phase separate. The shelf life
of E10 is only 60–90 days if left without treatment.
...
When it comes to winter storage, a boatyard should
run the tank down as low as possible at the end of the
season and treat what is left for the winter. That of
course goes against traditional thinking in terms of
condensation, but: better a small amount of water from
condensation than a tank full of bad gas.

 

[BobP]

CKJR, call your local town and ask if they take contaminated gasoline, say it's contaminated with water.

See what they say, then if so, get 6 gallon poly gas gans and load them up. Your town may have specific days hazardous stuff like this is taken in.
If they don't take it, call the nearest auto junk yard, they have to drain gas tanks when they dissmantle cars so they may take it in or iof not ask then who takes theirs.

I'd suggest you pull the fuel sender and rod out any remaining liquid in tank. Check your I ringsg on tank fill caps to see if they are due for new ones.

 

[Gman25]

I was wondering those of you with problems, do you use a gas additive like Startron, or constant stabil after every time you fill??I have been using Startron every time I put gas in the boat since we were introduced to E10 along with a 10 micron fuel/water seperator and knock on wood so far so good.

The only problem I experienced with the new HPDI's in 02 was the ethanol cleaned my fuel system on a 15 yr old boat clogging the filters including the VST. After a few tankfills the system was clean enough that I didnt have to change filters every month or so. But when I started using the Startron I immediatly noticed a positive difference in performance.

My friend in my marina had to have his tank pumped due to skanky gas. The company charged him about $5/gal. :shock:

___________________

2005 300 Marlin w/F250's

 

[BobP]

I'm getting this silvery/gray material on the VST filter - I can wipe it off from the inside of the VST tank wall, very fine, leaves very little on scott towel but enough to cover VST filter media. Fuel has been clear. Zero corrosion inside tank. Metal can inline medium pressure filter also restricting (vs. new), 2 seasons on it.

Took shipment of 2 micron racors from Andy at SIM recently, I'll see if stops it, then if so, it's occuring ahead of Racor.

I switched to blue stabil this past year no Startron, same silvery/grey material.

 

[Gman25]

Bob, are you getting a decrease in performance when you have that crud in your filters?Also I seem to remember there were different theories about what that stuff is. My mech at the time thought it might be an enzyme that was growing in the fuel. I recall at one point idoling at the dock and my RPM's were all over the place..ran as smooth as the Belt Pky a 5pm :wink: ..Thinking it might be an enzyme, thats what made us give the Startron(advertised as an anti enzyme treatment) a try. After pouring it in I let in idol for about an hour. After letting it sit for almost a week I fired her up and she never ran smoother.

Just passing along my experience, it might or might not work for you. Im not claiming it to be a cure all, but it couldnt hurt to try it.

2005 300 Marlin w/F250's

 

[CKJR]

I have always used ring free, I just started using startron after this incident. I will check with my town, Thanks to all CKJR

 

[BobP]

GMAN25, I never had an operating problem. Always left the gas to sit in VST tank all winter, then serviced the filter in Spring and seen it coated, always used startron prior.

This year I drained VST now and pulled filters, may have formed more if left over winter in tank.

Also, I'm a low hour user so perhaps wouldn't make it through the season w/o filter service if higher hour usage, or perhaps would be better if used more an dhave less of it (?)

The stuff covering the filter media I can wipe on my finger, not gritty at all, don't think it's organic and not dark in color.
For some reason it reminds me of antisieze compound.

It appears as white on the surface of the dark brown VST float. Easily comes off VST filter with a shot of gumout spray. I believe it stays dissolved in the fuel since no heavy buildup in bottom of VST tank. Just a very very light wisp coating all over, hardly any materiel on white scott towel appears as silver grey on scott towel. I can't think of any material lighter or a thinner coat to compare it too. The entire inside surface of the tank produced only so much to make two thumb prints on the scott towel.

A member at THT with a signature photo of an aluminum boat with many rod holders, F150 motor, I believe reported the same material and went to 2 micron racors and no more on VST filter. So we will see. The filter media has massive surface area on racors so I suspect I'll never get close to clogging it up and will monitor squeeze bulb for collapse during a few "hammertime " hole shots all season.

The 2 microns fit same head and bowl, so it's cheap and easy enough to do even though I can do VST filter and inline filter in about 1.5 hours total both motors taking my time.

The problem I have with startron is the rep over at THT who never can produce an independant expert lab report on the stuff and talks mostly magic. So that's why I stopped and went blue stabil, figured I'd see if startron was the culprit.

If the VSTs this year stay clean, then it's happening before the motor, in the fuel tank, or pumped in from the depot and startron nor blue stabil effects its creation in my opinion.

If I wanted to spend a grand or two, I can have the material on VST filter analyzed professionally. The 2 micron racors are about 50 bucks for both. This is like a research poroject to me, will eventually figure it out myself with no help from Yamaha who has all the resources in the world to reach out to for pennies to them.