Setting toe-in?

gw204

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2005
Messages
2,481
Reaction score
22
Points
38
Location
St. Leonard, MD
Anyone know what the toe-in measurement should be for a pair of Yamaha 200s on a Sailfish 252G?

Also, how do you go about setting that? Compare measurements between the prop shafts and tiller arms?

Thanks.
 

seasick

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2008
Messages
9,145
Reaction score
1,312
Points
113
Location
NYC
Found this interesting article on another board

TOE-IN and TOE-OUT
With twin engines a new consideration enters the rigging problem: alignment of the propeller shafts of the engines with respect to each other. This is known as toe-in or toe-out. A twin engine installation is said to have toe-in when the alignment of the propeller shafts is not parallel, and the shaft angles converge somewhere ahead of the engines. If the shaft angles converge astern of the engines, it is known as toe-out. Because of the difficulty in actually measuring the propeller shaft angles of twin engines, this adjustment is generally referred to in terms of the difference in distance between the horizontal spacing of the the tips of the gear case nose cones and the centerlines of the propeller shafts. Typical values of toe-in or toe-out are less than one inch difference.

The ultimate goal of toe-in or toe-out adjustments is to cause the propeller shaft angle at high speed to become the most effective at propelling the boat. Adjustment of the propeller shaft angles is made experimentally and in consideration of several factors:

convergence of the wakes
alignment with water flow
counter rotation propellers
Engine alignment will effect how far behind the boat the wakes of the twin engines will converge. In some instances there may be objectionable effects if the wakes converge too close to the boat. Such a convergence can produce loud exhaust sounds, and it may also lead to problems with propeller ventilation. For these reasons, the propeller shaft angles are often set with some toe-in, which tends to keep the wakes from converging until farther behind the boat.

In a V-hull boat the water flowing off the V-hull may not be perfectly aligned with the fore and aft centerline of the keel, but may be projecting outward at a slight angle. In order to align the propeller shafts with this slightly angled flow of water, some toe-in adjustment is often made. In installations where the engines are mounted on a set-back bracket, the water may have returned to a more parallel alignment by the time it reaches the gear cases, and a smaller allowance for toe-in may be more appropriate.

Literature from OMC provided with their Adjustable Tie Bar Kit mentions the following regarding toe-in and toe-out:

"The adjustment feature [of the tie bar] also allows you to create a toe-in condition between dual engines (bring the forward portions of the engines together slightly). This is very important if your boat has a deep V shaped hull. Because water does not pass straight to the rear off the bottom of a V shaped hull, but slightly towards each side of the center of the hull, a slight toe-in of the engines will align the engines' lower unit (gearcase) with the true direction of the water flow. This alignment with water flow allows the propeller to grip the water cleanly, more efficiently, resulting in improved boat performance.

"The precise amount of toe-in required depends upon the degree of V-shape of the boat's bottom. As the V-shape gets deeper or steeper, the amount of toe-in must increase. Proper toe-in adjustment can result in better boat performance and lower steering effort. The correct amount of toe-in for your boat and engine combination can only be achieved by making successive runs with varying degrees of toe-in."

The OMC literature goes on to mention that 1/2-inch of toe-in is appropriate for many V hulls and suggests starting from that point.

Specific advice for Boston Whaler boats is relayed via Boston Whaler Customer Service Representative Chuck Bennett. He recommends as follows:

"Toe in: Measure the distance between prop centers and forward edge of the gearcase at the ventilation plates. The measurement at the forward edge of the gearcase it to be 1/2" to 3/4" less than the prop center measurement."

It has also been speculated that twin engine installations with counter-rotating propellers will tend to create a situation where the propeller thrust may act to push the engines apart (i.e., create a reduction in the propeller shaft angle or cause a slight toe-in). The amount of this effect may be influenced by the nature of the engine mounts. If the engine mounts are flexible, it is more likely to occur. Thus, the static alignment of the engines may be set to be even or to have a slight toe-out. This will be overcome at speed and the propeller shafts will toe-in slightly or align to parallel when the counter-rotating propellers push the propeller shaft tips slightly apart.
 

BobP

GreatGrady Captain
Joined
Apr 27, 2005
Messages
4,746
Reaction score
6
Points
38
Location
Long Island, NY
Model
Sailfish
I thought on bracket boats as GW204's the setting is toe out, not toe in
per Yamaha instructions. Toe in on non-bracket boats

I used a steel straight edge across the two prop surfaces with engines in running position to first get them exactly neutral toe, then made a turn or 2 to lengthened the bar (toe out), just enough so that the straight edge didn't touch the 4 surfaces of the two prop trailing faces.

The Yamaha tech gave me the actual toe out spec but not having a point of reference or whatever tool he uses - I did this instead. The spec is actually more toe out than I did since I minimized it.
 

BobP

GreatGrady Captain
Joined
Apr 27, 2005
Messages
4,746
Reaction score
6
Points
38
Location
Long Island, NY
Model
Sailfish
Any update on this?

Did anyone use the THT method of disconnectig the slave motor and see it find its own position ?
 

gw204

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2005
Messages
2,481
Reaction score
22
Points
38
Location
St. Leonard, MD
I found numerous online references to GW recommending to set the engines parallel. So that's what I did as an initial starting point. I plan to tweak things once she's in the water, but I WILL NOT be disconnecting one engine while on plane. That just sounds like a very bad idea...
 

BobP

GreatGrady Captain
Joined
Apr 27, 2005
Messages
4,746
Reaction score
6
Points
38
Location
Long Island, NY
Model
Sailfish
Guys over at THT did it and say the motor tracks on it's own - supposed to be the best way to find it's setting. I'd just want to know if its is toe in or toe out when it does - good enough for me.

I know I'm not disconnectring one.
 

gw204

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2005
Messages
2,481
Reaction score
22
Points
38
Location
St. Leonard, MD
BobP said:
Guys over at THT did it and say the motor tracks on it's own - supposed to be the best way to find it's setting. I'd just want to know if its is toe in or toe out when it does - good enough for me.

I know I'm not disconnectring one.

My main concern would be for the safety of the person who had to stand on the bracket and do the disconnecting...
 

BobP

GreatGrady Captain
Joined
Apr 27, 2005
Messages
4,746
Reaction score
6
Points
38
Location
Long Island, NY
Model
Sailfish
I think you disconnect it before you take off, not at speed.

The THT guys report somewhere (in another country?) they don't run twins with tie bars at all.
 

Grog

GreatGrady Captain
Joined
Sep 27, 2006
Messages
2,008
Reaction score
1
Points
38
If you're going straight, the two engines don't need the tie-bar. I found that out the hard way when the spherical bearing let go. If you get up on plane on a very calm day, someone can reach back there and adjust the tie-bar. I wouldn't want to be standing on the platform while doing that. It is wierd how the motor tracks straight itself, one would think with the thrust behind the pivot point it wouldn't be stable but it is.
 

Workdog

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2005
Messages
242
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
NE Ohio
BobP said:
Any update on this?

Did anyone use the THT method of disconnectig the slave motor and see it find its own position ?
Bob,
I think this was discussed last year here. When I first set up my motors after putting them on, I set them at parallel. To check and see where they wanted to run at, I put the boat at my usual cruise speed and had someone take the wheel while I went to the back to disconnect the tiebar. When disconnected, the motors self adjusted, and were very stable. I reset the tiebar without any problems. On my 89 Gulfstream 230 (motors right on the transom) the motors are now at 15/16" toe-in.
 

JUST-IN-TIME

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2006
Messages
1,085
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Location
ON THE WATER
up to 1 '' in is what you want

what your really want is that both motors have there wash around 60-80 feet behind the boat

you can do the follow thing, but hope you have insurance

i did that once and will never ever do that again
 

BobP

GreatGrady Captain
Joined
Apr 27, 2005
Messages
4,746
Reaction score
6
Points
38
Location
Long Island, NY
Model
Sailfish
Workdog, you are saying toe in, so you are saying you had to shorten the tie bar while you were back there, correct?

Just in Time - is suggesting toe out, since the prop wash has to meet 60-80 ft back. lenthening the tie bar from parallel to begin with.

I'm not understanding this.

Can I get a clarification?
 

Workdog

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2005
Messages
242
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
NE Ohio
BobP said:
Workdog, you are saying toe in, so you are saying you had to shorten the tie bar while you were back there, correct?

Just in Time - is suggesting toe out, since the prop wash has to meet 60-80 ft back. lenthening the tie bar from parallel to begin with.

I'm not understanding this.

Can I get a clarification?

Bob, yes, this is correct. For my boat I had to shorten the tiebar. Now, this is for a pre SV2 hull with the motors on the transom. I can't vouch for what motors on a bracket will work best at. Also, I would think that your optimum setting would be slightly different for differing rpm settings and loads. Hull angle in the water which changes with speed and load would affect the water flow to the engines. I set my engines for the speed I normally cruise at which is 4000 rpm versus my max range rpm of 3000.
 

BobP

GreatGrady Captain
Joined
Apr 27, 2005
Messages
4,746
Reaction score
6
Points
38
Location
Long Island, NY
Model
Sailfish
Just in Time, ???

Toe in or Toe out on a bracketed boat? That's good enough for me.



Thanks.