I keep my 19 Tournament boat in LI Sound in CT. My probem is this. We belong to a private beach association that has a small marina with only 50 slips. People wait on average 30 years to get 1 slip bc of the small amount of slips to accomade 514 cottages. The board of directors has imposed a new bylaw this summer concerning boat lengths and width within the marina. Now boats cant be longer than 20 ft in length or 8 ft in width. They also don't take into consideration manufactorer spec's which list my 1998 Tournament at 8'ft. Last fall they measured my 19 Tournament at 8Ft 2 inches w the rubrails. You can imagine my frurstration. What are my options other than legal considerations.. Can I remove the preexisting rubrails just until the measurement is taken? Will the boat become exposed to any rotting or damage if I remove the rubrails? After measurement I will then immediatley replace them of course. Can I replace the existing manufacter rubrails w thinner brackets and rubrails? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.... Thanks
Suggestions Needed Immediately! Thanks in advance...
- Thread starter CT19Tournament
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I would not intentionally remove the rubrails for more than a day or so. This is where the inner and outer hulls join together. If water is allowed to enter it could freeze and cause some serious damage. I think you may want to remeasure, and if it is in fact less 96" or less ask them nicely to measure your hull again. If over 96", I guess you'll have to go elsewhere or trailer the boat.
As far as legal action, I think it would be costly. It appears that they want smaller boats, perhaps to get more boatss into those smal slips?
As far as legal action, I think it would be costly. It appears that they want smaller boats, perhaps to get more boatss into those smal slips?
Sent you a PM on this. Still seems to be in my outbox, but I assume it will go out on some automatic sweep soon.
Rub rails DO NOT count in overall specific measurements. I am a Naval Architect and do this for a living, where ever the fiberglass ends so does the boat, rub rails are not part of the overall length. Problem is an association and such can measure how ever they want. you could take legal ramification and could win with the right maritime lawyer, but they could then change the bylaws the year after just to spite you and state that this length goes by all extemities and accessories. Many marina's charge for pulpits and engines, although they are not supposed to charge for engines up, many do and nobody fights them. Legal measurements should be engines down, from back of cowling to tip of pulpit for marina's, anchors and such do not count...to be safe, remove them when a marna measures. Problem is your at their mercy and have to be measured their way if you want to be in that marina. My Marina charges me for 36'...My 265 is not 36'. They said it was actually 35'1" and they round up to every whole foot, never down. I'd argue but I'm in a 40 ft slip and love my slip, I could fit in a 35 ft slip but would rather have more space around my boat, plus it gives my Dad more space betwene pilings to back into and not hit. To go after them legally would cost more then it would be worth for me, the cost would be a lot, and that is assuming after you sue them they let you stay. Unfortunatley your at the mercy of the marina your at...my advice...make good friends with some important people at that marina or club and have them do you a favor and adjust beam to 8'!! You could show them manufactuer's specs to argue, but sucking up in this instance might be your only hope to get into this marina.
Just remember...your boat is bigger then theirs!!!
Just remember...your boat is bigger then theirs!!!
Guys,
Sitting here under a foot of new snow I can't help but wonder if a hull and/or rubrails might expand or contract enough to squeeze in a couple of inches. Would a boat that measures 8'2" at 80 degrees possibly measure 8' at zero? Or would the change be more likely measured in millimeters?
How about if it was in a sling versus on a trailer?
How about using a cheap China-made tape measure?
Just hate the thought of tearing something apart to meet a silly bylaw.
I bet gradyfish can come up with some engineering feat to make this work.
Sitting here under a foot of new snow I can't help but wonder if a hull and/or rubrails might expand or contract enough to squeeze in a couple of inches. Would a boat that measures 8'2" at 80 degrees possibly measure 8' at zero? Or would the change be more likely measured in millimeters?
How about if it was in a sling versus on a trailer?
How about using a cheap China-made tape measure?
Just hate the thought of tearing something apart to meet a silly bylaw.
I bet gradyfish can come up with some engineering feat to make this work.
I agree 100% it is super hard to measure a boat across the beam...wonder how most do it. I know i use a computer model....that is how manufacturers now determine dimensions. Most actually use the outter flange of the fiberglass of the hull where the hull to deck joint meets, few actually include the bow rail, some are starting to as of lately. Not sure which Grady does, and there is no such thing as a 100% identical boat, depending on when it was built and how well the hull and deck fit...ie it might have needed clamps to bring it in to fasten them correctly, one boat to another may have slight variations, on a boat that size maybe of upwards of an inch is possible depending on how long the hull and deck are allowed to cure before being pulled from the mold, as well as how much structure is put in before it is pulled, one with less structure will be allowed to change shape more.
Only real way to measure properly is to get 2 big sticks...2 tape measures and do it the old fashion way and get the same measurement on each tape and make sure it's squared off. I know almost no marina's will do that so their measurement is more of a guestimate, nobody can perfectly eyeball a beam measurement when the hull has crown and in your instance...a windshield where the max beam is.
Honestly I've never heard of any marina's worried about beam measurements, they usually take the word of the manufacturer, it is not worth the hassle to deal with, they typically want to know overall length so they can charge you as much as possible and make as much as they can, beam is irrelevant as long as it fits between the slips poles. I know they might have rules...but in reality, will 2" matter if the boat fits between the poles? Answer is NO
I would try and have Grady put in writting that the boat has a 8' max beam, in court this should help, and if the club heard it might go that far and you have documentation they might settle before it gets that far. Also, question how they took the measurement...ask how they squared up the edges to know it was aligned with the rub rail...did 1 or 2 guys do it? It is a 2 guy job to take slack out...maybe even a 3 guy job. did they use a measurement off the transom along the sheer line to identify a spot where the max beam is to make sure they measured on a straight line across the beam or did they measure on an angle, a slight angle could add inched easily, add that to not having the tape squared, and there are your 2" Also, a tape measure is not right for this job, it sags....you need a carpenter's ruler honestly. Tape measure's are absolutely HORRIBLE for measuring off, the right way is using a carpenter's ruler. We rarely use a tape measure to measure anything. For any precise measurement's, it is a carpenter's rule. Bet this is a little food for thought...hope some of this help's...I'm sure you can catch them up somewhere here....I'd suggect measuring it yourself these ways though as well just to know what they might find if they were to actually go do it the right way now.
Only real way to measure properly is to get 2 big sticks...2 tape measures and do it the old fashion way and get the same measurement on each tape and make sure it's squared off. I know almost no marina's will do that so their measurement is more of a guestimate, nobody can perfectly eyeball a beam measurement when the hull has crown and in your instance...a windshield where the max beam is.
Honestly I've never heard of any marina's worried about beam measurements, they usually take the word of the manufacturer, it is not worth the hassle to deal with, they typically want to know overall length so they can charge you as much as possible and make as much as they can, beam is irrelevant as long as it fits between the slips poles. I know they might have rules...but in reality, will 2" matter if the boat fits between the poles? Answer is NO
I would try and have Grady put in writting that the boat has a 8' max beam, in court this should help, and if the club heard it might go that far and you have documentation they might settle before it gets that far. Also, question how they took the measurement...ask how they squared up the edges to know it was aligned with the rub rail...did 1 or 2 guys do it? It is a 2 guy job to take slack out...maybe even a 3 guy job. did they use a measurement off the transom along the sheer line to identify a spot where the max beam is to make sure they measured on a straight line across the beam or did they measure on an angle, a slight angle could add inched easily, add that to not having the tape squared, and there are your 2" Also, a tape measure is not right for this job, it sags....you need a carpenter's ruler honestly. Tape measure's are absolutely HORRIBLE for measuring off, the right way is using a carpenter's ruler. We rarely use a tape measure to measure anything. For any precise measurement's, it is a carpenter's rule. Bet this is a little food for thought...hope some of this help's...I'm sure you can catch them up somewhere here....I'd suggect measuring it yourself these ways though as well just to know what they might find if they were to actually go do it the right way now.
My PM did not get out of my Outbox yet, so here it is in full:
Since the board has already measured your boat, any procedure such as removing the rubrails will be viewed with suspicion and almost certainly called into question.
I suspect many boats advertised as a beam of 8' are not exactly 96.00 inches wide. I would measure all boats that already have slips-or just ask the board if it has done so--to determine if they all are 96.00 inches or less by the same unforgiving measurement standard. If any is not, is its slip license being revoked? Any grace period to get a conforming replacement boat? If the existing boats are permitted to keep their slips, then they are "grandfathered" in under the by-law (but the by-law should be explicit on this point). If you have been on the waiting list with the same boat, then you could argue it is unreasonable discrimination to grandfather in the slipped boats and not yours, particularly if the by-law language on grandfathering is not specific on this point.
You could also check to determine whether the bylaw was properly adopted, with notice, adequate description of the action, etc. You presumably got notice of the bylaw proposal but did not object because you owned an "8 foot" wide boat. Even if not a good legal argument, there may be sufficient other boaters in your situation that would side with you (as well as those who would not mind seeing you disqualified once they check their measurement). Here, you can argue fundamental fairness to the board and ask for a clarification based on your manufacturer specification and being misled by the bylaw proposal, assuming it was not specific on the measurement standard. Also, depending on the layout of the slips (one boat per slip, perpendicular; two boats side by side) the rubrail width may not make a practical difference to achieving the board's objective. Fundamental fairness and a reasonable position is your best chance.
Finally, I believe there is an ABYC standard on boat dimensions that fixes three different width determinations: basically, waterline; structural hull (including deck to hull joinder); and with everything else, such as non-structural rubrails, added on. So the board's measurement standard does fall within one of the three approved methods (everything else). You can find the complete standard here: https://www.abycinc.org/committees/s-08.pdf
None of this is legal advice, but just a practical view on your alternatives. If you can make the discrimination argument and the board does not accept it, then you might discuss it with a local lawyer (preferably one in the association with an 8'2" wide boat). Sometimes just having a lawyer speaking for you can make a difference, without having to resort to expensive litigation that also would have ripple effects beyond boat width and slip rights.
Good luck.
Since the board has already measured your boat, any procedure such as removing the rubrails will be viewed with suspicion and almost certainly called into question.
I suspect many boats advertised as a beam of 8' are not exactly 96.00 inches wide. I would measure all boats that already have slips-or just ask the board if it has done so--to determine if they all are 96.00 inches or less by the same unforgiving measurement standard. If any is not, is its slip license being revoked? Any grace period to get a conforming replacement boat? If the existing boats are permitted to keep their slips, then they are "grandfathered" in under the by-law (but the by-law should be explicit on this point). If you have been on the waiting list with the same boat, then you could argue it is unreasonable discrimination to grandfather in the slipped boats and not yours, particularly if the by-law language on grandfathering is not specific on this point.
You could also check to determine whether the bylaw was properly adopted, with notice, adequate description of the action, etc. You presumably got notice of the bylaw proposal but did not object because you owned an "8 foot" wide boat. Even if not a good legal argument, there may be sufficient other boaters in your situation that would side with you (as well as those who would not mind seeing you disqualified once they check their measurement). Here, you can argue fundamental fairness to the board and ask for a clarification based on your manufacturer specification and being misled by the bylaw proposal, assuming it was not specific on the measurement standard. Also, depending on the layout of the slips (one boat per slip, perpendicular; two boats side by side) the rubrail width may not make a practical difference to achieving the board's objective. Fundamental fairness and a reasonable position is your best chance.
Finally, I believe there is an ABYC standard on boat dimensions that fixes three different width determinations: basically, waterline; structural hull (including deck to hull joinder); and with everything else, such as non-structural rubrails, added on. So the board's measurement standard does fall within one of the three approved methods (everything else). You can find the complete standard here: https://www.abycinc.org/committees/s-08.pdf
None of this is legal advice, but just a practical view on your alternatives. If you can make the discrimination argument and the board does not accept it, then you might discuss it with a local lawyer (preferably one in the association with an 8'2" wide boat). Sometimes just having a lawyer speaking for you can make a difference, without having to resort to expensive litigation that also would have ripple effects beyond boat width and slip rights.
Good luck.
You may as well find another home for your boat. Most marinas rely upon overall dimensions for purposes of charging for and assigning slips. Saying rubrails don't count, or bow pulpits, or outboards, or swim platforms - are not going to get you anywhere. Measuring requires nothing more than a tape and a couple plumb bobs (or rocks dangling at the end of a string). :roll:
Grady's website information specifies a "beam amidships" but not a maxium width. The beam amidships presumably would not pick up bow flare. While Grady's specification of a beam amidship helps understand on a consistent basis the roominess of its boats, not stating a maxium width of the boat (assuming it is different) is a disservice to those who expect to store it in their garage, in a slip, etc.
While I agree with gerrys' statement on marina standards (which makes eminent practical sense), I believe you may still have the arguments regarding interpretation of the bylaws, grandfathering, etc.
If the timing issue is critical, take the slip and park a 4' wide cheap old aluminum fishing boat until the issue is resolved. I assume you could give up the slip without losing money, other than any monthly charge.
While I agree with gerrys' statement on marina standards (which makes eminent practical sense), I believe you may still have the arguments regarding interpretation of the bylaws, grandfathering, etc.
If the timing issue is critical, take the slip and park a 4' wide cheap old aluminum fishing boat until the issue is resolved. I assume you could give up the slip without losing money, other than any monthly charge.
If you really want to stay, gather all the info (in writing!) and contact a lawyer after you have d asked the board to reconsider. You may have a case based on an issue with grandfathering existing boats and the Grady spec on beam. If the board still refuses to allow your boat, tell them you will need to involve a lawyer but would rather not.
If that doesn't work, get a lawyer. Depending on how long you have been a member, you have a strong argument to be grandfathered.
If that doesn't work, get a lawyer. Depending on how long you have been a member, you have a strong argument to be grandfathered.
I would measure the width at different points along the hull from the stern to bow. My GW is narrower at stern than it is midship. Not sure if same occurs on your 19ft, but perhaps they measured mid ship that could be widest. If you do have different measures perhaps you could argue on an average calculation or have them remeasure at the smaller area if one exists. Another option might be to replace rub rail with GW new aluminum rub rails that are now on the new boats, they seem to be less of a profile than the blue rubber ones.
Penalty Flag
I would protest the committee.
What is the intention of the rule?
1- Is it to eliminate members that are not wanted?
2- Is it to make room for friends further down the waiting list?
I lost a race once at another club because the protest flag I was flying was not at the correct height above the deck (off by 6 inches). The other yacht had clearly fouled causing us to bail at a mark but the committee was more interested in having home field advantage.
Live and learn and don't trust committees.
I would protest the committee.
What is the intention of the rule?
1- Is it to eliminate members that are not wanted?
2- Is it to make room for friends further down the waiting list?
I lost a race once at another club because the protest flag I was flying was not at the correct height above the deck (off by 6 inches). The other yacht had clearly fouled causing us to bail at a mark but the committee was more interested in having home field advantage.
Live and learn and don't trust committees.