I am replacing the group 27 Interstates on my 282 Sailfish that has twin f225 Yamaha's and was wondering how others rated thier brand of batteries. The Interstates didn't seem to last long for me but I do use the livewell a lot while drift fishing with the motors off....
What battery do you have for your four stroke?
- Thread starter Bassman
- Start date
I use the Deka 27 series and have been happy with them. Just replaced a pair that got me 3 years and 375 hours. I run my livewell constantly when I'm out fishing with the motor off. Mine is a single engine though.
Bassman, when you leave the boat after fishing for the day, is the battery recharged fully? If you don't know for sure, have to get one of those cheap specific gravity testers with the colored balls in the tube.
If not fully charged and you leave it say a week until next trip, the extended period of being only partially charged is the killer.
Overcharging as well as undercharging are both no good.
If you are deeply discharging a crank battery, no good either, has to be so called dual purpose or deep cycle (with crank ratings if you also crank from it).
I'm talking lead/acid, don't know about the AGMs etc.
If not fully charged and you leave it say a week until next trip, the extended period of being only partially charged is the killer.
Overcharging as well as undercharging are both no good.
If you are deeply discharging a crank battery, no good either, has to be so called dual purpose or deep cycle (with crank ratings if you also crank from it).
I'm talking lead/acid, don't know about the AGMs etc.
I have dual purpose batteries that are plugged in to a charger as soon as I dock, maybe they are being overcharged I never thought to check them. I have heard direct from Yamaha that gel batteries will not work well with my four strokes charging system..
If you had lead/acid, I would ask do you have to add water, how much and how often, that's the key indicator to overcharging for periods of time, beside monitoring voltage at the terminals.
Gel batteries were not recommended by Yamaha when I asked them.
AGMs are glass mat and shouldn't be (and haven't been) any problem for the last three seasons. They're also dual purpose, safer and easier to maintain. They do however cost more.
AGMs are glass mat and shouldn't be (and haven't been) any problem for the last three seasons. They're also dual purpose, safer and easier to maintain. They do however cost more.
wahoo33417
GreatGrady Captain
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2005
- Messages
- 1,191
- Reaction score
- 212
- Points
- 63
- Location
- West Palm Beach, FL
- Model
- Sailfish
I went with West Marine brand group 27 AGMs. Powerboat Reports rated them 'above average' and they were on sale for half-off. Been very happy with them for two years.
Rob
Rob
I just changed all three of my group 27 Dekka original flooded batteries with West Marine batteries (Sea Volt- starting) that are made by the same Manufacturing company that makes Dekka - East Penn. These are ths same batteries just under West Marine label. I did my research as I was considering AGM batteries or dula purpose, but Both GW and Yamaha recommend staying with flooded starting batteries as the charging sysyem on the yamaha four stroke engines are not compatible with these AGM batteries and can damage engine charging system.
Sea Volt starting battery Group 27 12V Starting Battery, 750 CCA, 925 MCA, 182 Res. Min., 55.5lb. 5817861 27M6 They have recently been relabeled with 1050MCA as they have been shown to be more powerful than the 925MCA listing. These were the only batteries I found with the 182 min reserve that my Yamaha F250 engines require and I know they are the same as the original batteries that have never failed me.
Sea Volt starting battery Group 27 12V Starting Battery, 750 CCA, 925 MCA, 182 Res. Min., 55.5lb. 5817861 27M6 They have recently been relabeled with 1050MCA as they have been shown to be more powerful than the 925MCA listing. These were the only batteries I found with the 182 min reserve that my Yamaha F250 engines require and I know they are the same as the original batteries that have never failed me.
Yamaha and merc cannot charge gel cell or agm batteries, only flooded type's, running anything else will cut down on life. Yamaha and Grady recommend only starting batteries, but you can get away with dual purpose batteries, do not use a deep cycle, the starting will signifcantly wear down the plates and kill the batteries life quickly. Yes starting and dual purpose will drain quicker from electronics but they charge faster and healthies from the engine which when you drift will be your primary source of charging between drifts. All type's can be safely charged at the dock with most chargers so that is not what your worried about, you need to use the battery that is best suited for your engines electrical system. Deka starting batteries are what Grady recommends as well as many other builders. Never had problems when using starting batteries, only off deep cycles way back in the day, and we run our livewell a lot, along with a lot of electronics. You want a battery with the highest RC you can find, the deka group 27's are 182, west marine has the identical battery made by the same manufacturer. I bought group 27's from Electro battery in Pompton Plains, NJ, they are about the same stats as the deka but more CCA/MCA.
Gradyfish, do you have a reference for the statement that Yamaha's can't charge AGM's? To my knowledge the AGM's and flooded have nearly identical charging charateristics (with the AGM's being abit more flexible). Are you saying the Yamaha's don't put out enough juice or what?
Parthery
GreatGrady Captain
Gradyfish, I ran AGMs on my 205 and 226 and never had a problem. I too would be curious if I missed something regarding using them.
Costco by me has them for $154 for the Optima blue tops...not a bad deal. Everywhere else I've seen was closer to $200.
Costco by me has them for $154 for the Optima blue tops...not a bad deal. Everywhere else I've seen was closer to $200.
I called Yamaha direct 2 times and 2 seperate rep's stated that they have had issues with charging AGM style batteries and they only recommend flooded cell batteries, you can call them personally and see if they state the same thing. Charging characteristics are similar between both but NOT the same, an AGM is a more aggresive charge cycle since they are considered more a high performance battery by the industry. Part of why a gel or AGM battery last longer and have more power for their size is how the electrical current flows through them, they hold in power longer, but this is also why they have problems over time due to the sytle of charging system from the engines.
Before I added AGMs to my Grady I called both GW and Yamaha. GW had no opinion and recommended I contact Yamaha. Yamaha said AGMs were no problem as long as the batteries met the minimum specs for the engines. That was in 2006 so they may have changed their opinion since then but they clearly had no objection or concern over the use of AGMs at that time.
They did state that gel batteries should not be used but since that was not what I cared about at the time I did not pursue that line of reasoning.
They did state that gel batteries should not be used but since that was not what I cared about at the time I did not pursue that line of reasoning.
I am getting ready to replace batteries in my 209. I am going to go with group 27's but should I get one starting and one dual purpose? I have a switch where I can got to battery 1, 2, or both. The motor is a 225 honda and I drift a lot with electronics on and run livewell with motor off.
gradyfish22 said:
Come on guys, this is just not true. I find this kind of erroneous information frustrating on a forum that serves to help fellow owners.
A deep cyle battery is very well suited for our boats when they run a lot of equipment like radios, pumps, lights, sounders, etc. As long as the deep cycle is sufficiently sized to handle the starting needs they work very well and will last the longest. And they don't 'wear down the plates', that's just not true.
A starting or 'dual-purpose' do not do well with deep discharges as they have thinner plates than a deep cycle. Nor does any battery last a long time if they are left partially discharged for any length of time. The deeper they are discharged and the more times they are discharged, the shorter their life - this is true for any battery type, but espcially for starting or light duty types.
A deepcyle (or bank) with a cranking battery (or bank, or one for each engine) in reserve is the best solution. But you need the second charging circuit to maintain the cranking battery you have in position 2. This way if you run down your main battery to where it won't start your motor, you can switch to your fresh cranking battery. A deep cyle will way outlast the others with this type of configuration.
If you are running a multi-engine, mulit-battery setup, then you can usually configure a starting and house battery setup. Golf cart (6v) can be very useful in this type of application, outlasting 12v batts by a long margin, and providing a ton of reserve power. Very popular in the RV's, not as much in boats.
While AGM's have several advantages to flooded cell lead-acid types, they are considerably more expensive and can require special charging protocols. For me, the lead-acid are a cheap solution, easy to maintain, and their condition can be easily monitored. Costco, Sams, Walmart, are good sources with cheap prices and fresh inventory. Guys with big bucks to spend can gain some longer life with the AGM's, and are espcially well suited where they have limited access or where acid spillage would be a problem since they can be mounted in odd configurations.
Good battery info here: http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm
I do not feel anything I have said is erroneous and infact take offense to this since you have not proven anything to the contrary in your post. I simply stated what Grady, Yamaha, Merc, and even East Penn told me as well as from my research. To state that your opion of my advice frustrates you sickens me and more so is a lack of respect. I am here to help just as much as anyone else and do not convey any information that I do not have something to back it up with.
As far as saying starting off a deep cycle will not wear the plate down, I'd love to see where it doesn't because that is a FACT!!
I agree none of these batteries is perfect for what we all do, but for 99% of us, a starting or dual purpose will provide the most trouble free performance on the water. If you use a deep cycle you will have issues down the road, I've been on far too many boats with them that killed the batteries and we had to call for a tow or jump. I've seen far too many boats with deep cycles have the electronics flicker off during starting due to the deep discharge that the battery strains to perform typically.
If anyone else feels my posts on this topic was erroneous I'd love to hear your reasoning, please feel free to pm me.
As far as saying starting off a deep cycle will not wear the plate down, I'd love to see where it doesn't because that is a FACT!!
I agree none of these batteries is perfect for what we all do, but for 99% of us, a starting or dual purpose will provide the most trouble free performance on the water. If you use a deep cycle you will have issues down the road, I've been on far too many boats with them that killed the batteries and we had to call for a tow or jump. I've seen far too many boats with deep cycles have the electronics flicker off during starting due to the deep discharge that the battery strains to perform typically.
If anyone else feels my posts on this topic was erroneous I'd love to hear your reasoning, please feel free to pm me.
Mr. Grady, most of what you have to say on this board is good information. It would appear we both have documented evidence, experience, and research to back up our opinions. We can simply agree to disagree here. Whoa there, no need to get all personal about it, we have a difference of opinion, that is all. Keep in mind that your opinion is not fact, it's simply your opinion. Claiming that a deepcyle battery will fail prematurely in this type of application is erroneous information at best, and I'm sorry if you take offense to my calling you out on it. For all I know, we are arguing different points and I have taken your statement out of context.
The engine manufacturers are obviously going to recommend a cranking battery for starting as that is what they are for and will give sure starts for a cold engine when fully charged. If they are used in place of a deepcycle application and constantly drawn down deeply and then recharged, they will surely fail prematurely. I don't understand how you can possibly argue this. Starting batteries are simply not designed to be constantly drawn down in the manner that a deepcyle battery is. I even confirmed that in my post, as the ideal situation, if you have room, is for a 'house' setup and starting batteries.
However, for the small boat owner, as the original poster has described, with lots of equipment running off their battery, my [stupid] humble opinion is that a deep cycle with a starting backup will work much better, give longer life, and this concept is fully supported by all battery documention and information available. This is really nothing new, but actually very old technology that has been around for years and years. I have been using these basic tenets of battery usage for more than 30 years in all manner of vessels and vehicles.
Now, an off-topic subject...
Please consider that it would be very nice for the entire forum if you would re-size your signature pic to 3-400 pixels in width so we all don't have to have the thread window blown out every time you post. We thank you in advance for your attention to this simple matter.
The engine manufacturers are obviously going to recommend a cranking battery for starting as that is what they are for and will give sure starts for a cold engine when fully charged. If they are used in place of a deepcycle application and constantly drawn down deeply and then recharged, they will surely fail prematurely. I don't understand how you can possibly argue this. Starting batteries are simply not designed to be constantly drawn down in the manner that a deepcyle battery is. I even confirmed that in my post, as the ideal situation, if you have room, is for a 'house' setup and starting batteries.
However, for the small boat owner, as the original poster has described, with lots of equipment running off their battery, my [stupid] humble opinion is that a deep cycle with a starting backup will work much better, give longer life, and this concept is fully supported by all battery documention and information available. This is really nothing new, but actually very old technology that has been around for years and years. I have been using these basic tenets of battery usage for more than 30 years in all manner of vessels and vehicles.
Now, an off-topic subject...
Please consider that it would be very nice for the entire forum if you would re-size your signature pic to 3-400 pixels in width so we all don't have to have the thread window blown out every time you post. We thank you in advance for your attention to this simple matter.
fishhrd
Per your post, I would not recommend mixing battery types unless you are going to reconfigure how your battery selector is wired, currently your batteries are wired together I would assume unless someone has already changed it, and mixing battery types will harm one of the two, typically the battery that draws down less since the slave battery will draw on it as well, not just the electronics. If you were to rewire the electrical system by the charger and at the engines, a deep cycle for the house and a starting would be appropriate, Blue Seas makes a system for about $120(price last time I checked) that would seperate the batteries except when the house battery draws low enough and needs to be charged, but you cannot wire it the way it comes from the dealer to have this work properly. You could switch between battery's but from my experience that causes more issues if you forget to switch at the right time, you would need to really monitor both to have a clue how the charge is, personally I think one will suffer from neglect over time. For your situation, 2 dual purpose or 2 starting are fine. I drift and anchor a lot, sometimes anchored for up to 4 hours at a time, while running my livewell, gps, 2 vhf's, seperate sounder, and sometimes the radar depending on conditions, as well as the stereo. I have never had an issue with starting after doing so, and that was with group 24's, I went to group 27's this season to have bigger batteries for my lighting load when I fish offshore at night. For drifting, you should have 0 problems with either a starting or dual purpose since most drifts are under 1 hour, you would have to run a lot to drain your batterys to the point you could not start.
If you look at the specs between most dual purpose and starting batteries there is often very little difference between the RC and CCA of the battery. The big thing you need to look for is the RC, that is your reserve current, many batterys rate this as the minutes of current left @ an amp rating, typically 20 or 25 amps depending on manufacturer. A Deka, Electro, or West Marine Starting battery will give you about 180 RC per battery, 3 hours from 1 battery, add a second battery and now it is 6 hours at say 20 amps. Most boaters on the drift will not draw 20 amps, but some could. Calculate your electronic amp load to determine just how long your batteries can run without the engine turning on. If you only run a short distance to go back over a drift you will not fully charge the battery, but you will charge a good part of it fast once you get to a cruise speed, 10 min run can get a battery back up there if it is a starting or dual purpose battery since they accept a fast charge.
Unless your running a very large draw off your batteries which most typical boaters are not simply due to the size of our boats and what we can put on them and run on the water, or if you overnight and do not use a generator to charge your batteries, there really is no need to use one starting and one dual purpose, you will have little benefit from it.
As far
Per your post, I would not recommend mixing battery types unless you are going to reconfigure how your battery selector is wired, currently your batteries are wired together I would assume unless someone has already changed it, and mixing battery types will harm one of the two, typically the battery that draws down less since the slave battery will draw on it as well, not just the electronics. If you were to rewire the electrical system by the charger and at the engines, a deep cycle for the house and a starting would be appropriate, Blue Seas makes a system for about $120(price last time I checked) that would seperate the batteries except when the house battery draws low enough and needs to be charged, but you cannot wire it the way it comes from the dealer to have this work properly. You could switch between battery's but from my experience that causes more issues if you forget to switch at the right time, you would need to really monitor both to have a clue how the charge is, personally I think one will suffer from neglect over time. For your situation, 2 dual purpose or 2 starting are fine. I drift and anchor a lot, sometimes anchored for up to 4 hours at a time, while running my livewell, gps, 2 vhf's, seperate sounder, and sometimes the radar depending on conditions, as well as the stereo. I have never had an issue with starting after doing so, and that was with group 24's, I went to group 27's this season to have bigger batteries for my lighting load when I fish offshore at night. For drifting, you should have 0 problems with either a starting or dual purpose since most drifts are under 1 hour, you would have to run a lot to drain your batterys to the point you could not start.
If you look at the specs between most dual purpose and starting batteries there is often very little difference between the RC and CCA of the battery. The big thing you need to look for is the RC, that is your reserve current, many batterys rate this as the minutes of current left @ an amp rating, typically 20 or 25 amps depending on manufacturer. A Deka, Electro, or West Marine Starting battery will give you about 180 RC per battery, 3 hours from 1 battery, add a second battery and now it is 6 hours at say 20 amps. Most boaters on the drift will not draw 20 amps, but some could. Calculate your electronic amp load to determine just how long your batteries can run without the engine turning on. If you only run a short distance to go back over a drift you will not fully charge the battery, but you will charge a good part of it fast once you get to a cruise speed, 10 min run can get a battery back up there if it is a starting or dual purpose battery since they accept a fast charge.
Unless your running a very large draw off your batteries which most typical boaters are not simply due to the size of our boats and what we can put on them and run on the water, or if you overnight and do not use a generator to charge your batteries, there really is no need to use one starting and one dual purpose, you will have little benefit from it.
As far