Fish finder/ GPS turns off when starting engine

[Blaugrana]

That is correct. There will be a voltage drop, but it shouldn't get much below 12V.

If the battery has a similar drop, what could that mean? I had a new starter installed on my outboard, anything I should look at to see if there could be somethingoff?

 

[Parthery]

My a78 does this too whenever I start it with one battery. If I start it with both it’s fine.

My batteries are new...I think the electronics are just sensitive.

 

[Doc Stressor]

It's possible that the new starter is drawing too much current. Is it original equipment or an aftermarket product made by Agricultural Unit 47 in China? I don't know how to measure the current draw and other starter properties. Maybe someone else with more electrical experience can chime in.

 

[SkunkBoat]

I would still try isolating the problem with simple things like;
connect A60 directly to battery
use jumper cables to rule out a bad starter cable or connection
use a jumper wire to rule out a bad ground or feed wire to the fuse panel or bad connection

You can measure the voltage til you are blue in the face but the drop can happen faster than your meter can display.

 

[seasick]

I would measure the voltage on the nain bus at the helm as opposed to the connector or fuse to the A60. It will probably also be low but if it isn't there is a wiring issue with the A60 feed.
If it low there also, measure at the battery positive terminal when starting. If that is as low as you got at the A60 then is seems that the battery is shot.

 

[Blaugrana]

Thanks all, I’ll give all the advice a shot next time I’m by the boat.

I read the installation manual on the A60 and looks like it needs a minimum of 10v which I am way off if dropping to 8.95 . Also, said to have a dedicated power source/ connection and not to go to shared supply. Curious if anyone actually follows the instructions

To test using the jumper wire and cable, what gauge wire should I get? I have nothing so going to get both. Just match the gauge wire I have as the power supply?

 

[trapper]

Had that issue a few years ago. Installed a Blue Seas system ACR No isues since. Have an auto charging system when it is in the barn.

 

[SkunkBoat]

Thanks all, I’ll give all the advice a shot next time I’m by the boat.

I read the installation manual on the A60 and looks like it needs a minimum of 10v which I am way off if dropping to 8.95 . Also, said to have a dedicated power source/ connection and not to go to shared supply. Curious if anyone actually follows the instructions

To test using the jumper wire and cable, what gauge wire should I get? I have nothing so going to get both. Just match the gauge wire I have as the power supply?

They all say to run directly to the battery with the supplied cable. That's the only way they can know that you have the correct size wire and fuse and don't have wiring problems not related to their equipment. So when you call their tech support they are troubleshooting their equipment not your boat. Nobody wires them all to the battery of course because you would have a birds nest of wires all running to battery terminals. But, the first troubleshooting step is...connect it directly to the battery(including an inline fuse).

I don't suspect that the problem is just the A60.
You have low voltage at the fuse panel and the A60 is telling you that.
It can be one or more of several things.
It can be weak batteries that don't hold a charge.
It can be that the motor is not charging them properly.
It can be a poor connection of the "House" positive or negative wiring. This could be at the battery or battery switch or at the fuse panel.
It can be one of those wires corroded internally.
It can be poor connections or corroded battery switch.
You recently replaced the starter and a battery. So you were having problems starting the motor?

From what I can gather, you don't have any problem starting the motor. Is that correct? It cranks and starts quickly?
The motor maintans the batteries and you have not had to recharge the batteries with a charger?
When your motor is running, what voltage does the yamaha gauge read? and the other electronics, do they have volt readouts?
With motor running the readouts are all over 12.8 v and close to 14V?
When you turn all the electronics off does the voltage go up?

You have two batteries and presumably a 1-2-both-off switch, yes? You have the same problem with each battery selected? Confirm, you are not using the Both setting to start the motor? You have one new battery and an older one.The problem occurs even on the new one?

You have the typical grady setup of a 40 Amp red button breaker near the batteries that feeds the dash thru 6 gauge wire?

Have you physically traced out all of the connections and wires. Back off the nuts and re-tighten. Look for" green" and look for hard spots in wire that indicate internal corrosion. Pull the battery switch off the bulkhead and look at and tighen the connections. That is the first step.
I would't go replacing starters and batteries first.

I don't know your experience or comfort level with these things.
I was a teenage TV repair man in 1979 and worked on Navy gun & missle fire control systems and medical diagnostic equipment throughout my life.
I suggested running a jumper because thats what i would do to quickly test if its a problem between the battery and fuse panel. But I have easy access to spools of wire and I know what I'm trying to accomplish.

I have had similar problems over 30 years on every boat I've owned and other people's boats.
Most often it is a simple loose connection of the negative house that is the culprit.

When I got the 265, it had 3 brand new batteries. In the next few weeks I had the Garmin giving me low volt alarms.
We did the usual "wiggle" things and did'nt give it much attention.
Then we went dark 90 miles out at midnight. That was the hidden connection on the back of the Red button breaker.
The Garmin stopped volt alarms for a while. Then it started its alarm again. My brother was fishing at the dock with lights and stereo on and left the battery switch on Both and the stereo on overnight. After that more problems. Turns out, one motor was not charging "its" battery. The stator had one leg open. It would appear to me that the previous owner was having the same problem which is why he had 3 brand new batteries. Putting the switch to Both was killing the other batteries.

Hopefully, yours is the simpler problem. Take a day and go thru it. get your hands and eyes in there.

 

[Fishtales]

Voltage drop will kill the electronics for a sec and reset. I’ve replaced a lot of battery switches when electronics or radio will go off when engine is started or trimmed.

^^ I'd say this.

 

[Blaugrana]

They all say to run directly to the battery with the supplied cable. That's the only way they can know that you have the correct size wire and fuse and don't have wiring problems not related to their equipment. So when you call their tech support they are troubleshooting their equipment not your boat. Nobody wires them all to the battery of course because you would have a birds nest of wires all running to battery terminals. But, the first troubleshooting step is...connect it directly to the battery(including an inline fuse).

I don't suspect that the problem is just the A60.
You have low voltage at the fuse panel and the A60 is telling you that.
It can be one or more of several things.
It can be weak batteries that don't hold a charge.
It can be that the motor is not charging them properly.
It can be a poor connection of the "House" positive or negative wiring. This could be at the battery or battery switch or at the fuse panel.
It can be one of those wires corroded internally.
It can be poor connections or corroded battery switch.
...

Thanks for the thorough response...Responded to your questions below.

1. You recently replaced the starter and a battery. So you were having problems starting the motor?

Yes, starter ended up going. I would start and would churn but didn't seem to engage. I could get the engine to start by spraying WD-40 in the starter and tapping it with a hammer. It would turn over and then continuously start for the rest of that trip. I got tired of doing that, brought to the Marina that I use for Service and they replaced free of charge.​

At the start of the season, 1 battery (2 yrs old) was replaced due to a stupid error. Long story short, the crossover between the two batteries was not connected. I didn't see this and just bought a new battery as the old one was dead when I got it and didn't want to bother with it after I got it back working only to encounter another issue with it, which was a result of the crossover being disconnected..​

2. From what I can gather, you don't have any problem starting the motor. Is that correct?

It cranks and starts quickly? Yes. Little different behavior than in the past. I turn the key, slight delay (less than a second), would churn for another second and then kick over. Every time it starts with no issue.​

3. The motor maintains the batteries and you have not had to recharge the batteries with a charger?

Nope, so far so good.​

4. When your motor is running, what voltage does the yamaha gauge read? and the other electronics, do they have volt readouts? With motor running the readouts are all over 12.8 v and close to 14V?

Pretty sure it was either 13.7 or 14.3V when I last looked. I'll double check the next time I use it but definitely over 12.7.​

5. When you turn all the electronics off does the voltage go up?

I have not tried this yet, but will the next time I am out.​

6. You have two batteries and presumably a 1-2-both-off switch, yes? You have the same problem with each battery selected?

Yes to all.​

7. Confirm, you are not using the Both setting to start the motor? You have one new battery and an older one.The problem occurs even on the new one?

Not using the both when starting. I have the same issue when using the old one (2 years or less old) and new one (2 - 3 months)​

8. You have the typical grady setup of a 40 Amp red button breaker near the batteries that feeds the dash thru 6 gauge wire?

Pretty sure its a 40amp red button, definitely a red button breaker next to the battery switch. As for the 6 gauge, I believe so, but I need to revisit the wiring. The wiring diagram (attached) shows 10AMP by the batteries running to the front and then a 6gauge wiring coming out. Not following this at all so I need to inspect. Think I saw in accessory panel spec that it could be a 6 gauge or 10 gauge.​

​

9. Have you physically traced out all of the connections and wires. Back off the nuts and re-tighten. Look for" green" and look for hard spots in wire that indicate internal corrosion. Pull the battery switch off the bulkhead and look at and tighen the connections. That is the first step. I would't go replacing starters and batteries first.

Not yet, but started looking at the helm where the wires are all running to. There is definitely some corrosion/ "green" happening there. Also noticed that some nuts were loose and I quickly tightened by hand. I'll spend more time here the next time I am on it.​

​

10. I don't know your experience or comfort level with these things.

Definitely lack experience with DC with my first experience being a couple months ago when I replaced the front bilge pump and switch, learning how they all operate in the process. I'm good with wiring and fixing electrical issues in my house, but never did much with DC. I built computers when I was a kid, so understand how things work.​

No concerns from a comfort level, but the biggest concern I have is that its a 20 year old boat with history so who knows what was done to circumvent prior issues rather than address them. I just need to figure out how the wires are running. I agree with using the jumper to root cause the issue as it eliminates most variables​

I like learning how things work and can lose myself hours doing it, so that should help ​

 

[SkunkBoat]

yep amazing how that 10 gauge wire becomes 6 gauge after passing thru a rigging tube. You're definitely a little different because you have two batteries and a switch.

Since you have no problem starting the motor on either single battery, I would rule out the batteries and the starting cables.

As others have said, the battery switch can be a gremlin. If you replace it, look for a Marinco that has the connections on the front side...GENIUS!!!!

food for thought...
if you rigged one battery for the house and the other for starting, you would not have issues with starting effecting your electronics.
This would be done by moving the House connection off the motor start wire and using an ACR or an Isolator or an Aux charging wire from your Yamaha to charge/power the house. You would want a House on/off switch or replace the red button with a switchable breaker.

 

[seasick]

My a78 does this too whenever I start it with one battery. If I start it with both it’s fine.

My batteries are new...I think the electronics are just sensitive.

The reason why starting on BOTH has less drop is simple. In effect you are drawing the current through two battery cables and more importantly each shares half of the current ( all else being equal). Therefore the voltage drop across the battery cables is half that of using one battery. This symptom can help identify the cause since two factors are obvious: In BOTH or on one battery, the negative wiring used is the same (assuming tat the problem occurs on either battery but not BOTH). Secondly, the splitting of the current across the two cables only occurs up to the battery switch so everything past that point is eliminated.
So the excessive drop is local to the battery area. That means it is due to excessive current draw or undersized batteries. ( or weak batteries or a bad connection or battery switch)
You can measure the current draw using a clamp on type of ammeter if you can borrow one. Knowing the started draw and the wire gauge and length will allow you to calculate if the cables are undersized. A second way to measure is to measure the voltage at the batter's positive terminal and at the output of the battery switch where the accessory feed is also connected. You may need to dismount the battery switch to get to the terminals.

The key fact is whether the problem existed before the starter swap. If it didn't but does now, you can be fairly certain that the new starter or its installation is part of the problem. When the starter was installed, I am sure that battery cables were disconnected so check all of those areas.

.

 

[Blaugrana]

Fooled around measuring the voltage last night and today while I wait for jumper wires...


New Battery: 12.7
Drops to 10.76 when starting
Starter solenoid goes to8.81
Dash goes to 8.81
Tilting engine drops 1 volt when engine not running

Older Battery battery 12.59
Drops 2+ volts tilting engine underway
Drops to 10.6 or so when starting
Starter Solenoid and dash had same measurement as #1

All grounds and electronics go to the older battery...


Few Questions:
1. On an OX66, where are the battery terminals? I measured the solenoid when starting but would like to test the voltage at the engine. Do I need to remove a plastic cover?

2. Why would both the starting of the engine and tilting cause significant voltage drop? No other electronics causes this

3. What should I clean any terminals and and connectors with? If anyare green, should I just cut and replace?

4. When looking for the terminals on the outboard, I opened up the fuse case and saw an extra fuse. Is that a typical place one stores as a backup?

Feel like the cables going to the engine may be causing the drop as nothing else results in such significant drops. I turned every electronic on and all switches but didn’t have that much of a drop. Seems like closing any circuit involving the outboard drops the volts

 

[seasick]

You may have two things going on. One battery may be weak OR the cables connecting have bad connections.
Answers to your questions:
1. The fat black cable that comes out of the rigging tube is the battery negative connects to a bolt on the block. Follow the cable and check that connection
2. The starter draws a very large current . The tilt draw is smaller but still larger than typical electronics
3. Don't cut terminals unless it is obvious that the crimp is bad. If you do recrimp, you need the right tools especially for the larger gauge wire. That tool is a hydraulic crimper and of course the correct connectors.., Clean the terminals and the bolt contact areas with a wire brush and/or emery sandpaper until somewhat shinny.

The battery positive feed also comes through the rigging tube. It is a fat red cable that connects to the starter solenoid and also feeds the fuse box that is under the plastic cover. There are two fuses, an 80 amp and a 30 amp. Pull those fuses and check for corrosion. The spare fuse is factory original and sort of snaps into the inside of the plastic cover.

If I am reading the wiring diagram correctly, a bad connection at the motor should not impact the voltage at the accessory bus as much as it did. They are two separate circuits. So for the voltage to be low at the dash, there has to be a bad connection or cable in the accessory feed or common ground. The common ground is a smaller size wire (smaller gauge than the battery cable) that connects directly to one of the battery's negative terminal.
At a minimum, one battery should have 2 fat cables on the negative and the other battery should have 3 connection on the negative, two fat ones and one smaller (the accessory negative bus wire)
Check fo those connections.
Finally as I may have mentioned, the accessory feed runs from the dash to the battery compartment, to a breaker mounted on the wall and then to the back (usually) common output of the battery switch. Those terminal could be corroded or the switch could be bad. Bad switches are not that common but corroded connections are.

One measurement you didn't mention is what voltage you read at the dash before and after you turn on the electronics. If there is a significant voltage drop, you are getting closer to finding the problem. If that is the case, you can eliminate problems with the engine wiring.

Hope this makes sense.

 

[Blaugrana]

Thanks for the feedback...

I did forget to mention the voltage at the dash. With and without the electronics on it was only a difference of 0.1-0.2v. What I don’t get is the batteries never drop below 10.6 when starting but the starter solenoid and dash drop briefly to 8.8 or so. Is that because when turning the key I close the circuit at the helm that then passes the voltage to allow the starter to kick in at the engine? If so, then my problem is the dash??

Also, my batteries are wired a little differently than you mentioned with my 2nd battery only having 1 cable on each terminal. I need to still check the voltage at the engine.

Attached are pics of my batteries and connections at the helm. Ground looks corroded and power fuse panel just looks old.

The white wire that is partially exposed is for the GPS/ Fishfinder. Today, I hit some good wakes and the GPS turned off. First time it did that but might have been a result of me playing with that wire. Regardless, it’s bad because I can touch it and it turns off. Didn’t do that last week. As of now, it’s my bad connection but not sure it’s causing my voltage drop.

I need to put the spare fuse back in when I trace the wires. It flew out and almost landed in the water when I opened it.

 

[seasick]

Regarding the fourth picture: The number of cables I said should be on the battery were negative cables. In the photo I see 6 connections on the top terminal. I don't know what the tripple conductor cable is though. The fat cable is the main negative battery cable and goes to the motor. The black cable on the left seems to be the accessory negative.. The middle sized black cable on the right may be the jumper between the two batteries. Since there is only one connection on the second battery negative terminal, If the batteries are next to each other, the cable size might be OK but if they are far apart or the cable bridging the two batteries is kind of long, I would expect that cable to be the same gauge as the main negative cable. probably That cable should be replaced with a heavier gauge cable. If the battery in the last photo is battery 2, I would expect excessive voltage drops when starting on battery 2.

Your dash negative bus bar looks good . The positive bus and fuse block have some corrosion and may or may not be an issue. Check the fuse and socket that the plotter is connected to. If it is really bad, move the wire to an unused position and see how that works.
clean up the negative connectors on battery 1 first and see if that helps, if not you may need to change the battery jumper cable

 

[SkunkBoat]

The bottom right corner of the fuse block is a negative bus. what feeds that? Is it a jumper from the negative bus in the other picture or does the neg from the battery go there?
Is it fed with the same gauge wire as the positive?
https://www.greatgrady.com/attachments/22677be9-1d96-49a1-8673-324bb4631057-jpeg.14780/


Those blue green wires are fuel tank & bilge pump grounds

 

[cap]

FWIW.
I was having the same type voltage drop to my older garmin C/P. it would cause the display to flicker but not go off.
Could touch the wire at the Fuse panel and would work fine for awhile.
I took the Fuse Panel out, disassembled it cleaned the contacts , replaced the connector on the wire from the C/P.
Still had the same problem, when the screen started flickering the displayed voltage would show in the 10 volt area.
I could reach down touch the connector at the fuse panel and voltage would go back to battery voltage.
Replaced the fuse panel and have no more trouble.

I never would have believed it after cleaning the old one as good as I did. Made a believer out of me.

 

[Fishtales]

Usually a sign of an electronics voltage sensitivity or battery droop when starting.

 

[Blaugrana]

Regarding the fourth picture: The number of cables I said should be on the battery were negative cables. In the photo I see 6 connections on the top terminal. I don't know what the tripple conductor cable is though. The fat cable is the main negative battery cable and goes to the motor. The black cable on the left seems to be the accessory negative.. The middle sized black cable on the right may be the jumper between the two batteries. Since there is only one connection on the second battery negative terminal, If the batteries are next to each other, the cable size might be OK but if they are far apart or the cable bridging the two batteries is kind of long, I would expect that cable to be the same gauge as the main negative cable. probably That cable should be replaced with a heavier gauge cable. If the battery in the last photo is battery 2, I would expect excessive voltage drops when starting on battery 2.

Your dash negative bus bar looks good . The positive bus and fuse block have some corrosion and may or may not be an issue. Check the fuse and socket that the plotter is connected to. If it is really bad, move the wire to an unused position and see how that works.
clean up the negative connectors on battery 1 first and see if that helps, if not you may need to change the battery jumper cable

Will do, thanks for the feedback. I'm going to clean up all terminals the next time I am by the boat. I'll also check the gauges on all cables by the batteries. One of those negatives is the crossover and I believe the other goes to the ground on the engine, but I need to trace that. They all tie together to a huge groupings of wire and I can't figure out what's what so I'm going to cut the cable ties and go from there.