Release 283 Electrical Problems

[LUNDINROOF]

Saturday night I put my 283 on my lift, lowered the engines and turned the Perko switches off. Before I got out of the boat, I noticed that the indicator light on the aft bilge pump was lit.

I thought this indicated that the pump was running but I could not hear it. I put the switch in the on position and the entire accessory panel lit up and the pump started to run. There was no water in the bilge. When the aft pump switch is on, all accessories will work even though the Perko switches are off. When I turn the aft pump switch off, the panel looses power except that the light indicator is still on.

No mater what I did, I could not get that indicator to go off. I know the bilge pumps are wired direct to the batteries through the float switch but I cannot guess how that could power the entire accessory panel.

Anybody have any thought?

Thanks

 

[NOTHING ELSE MATTERS]

The hot wire of the pump coming from the battery to the switch maybe is in contact with the hot that powers the switch panel. If both, the pump and the switch panel, are fused at the same fuse block(blue seas 6 or 12 gang fuse panel), maybe the fuse block is no good.

 

[LUNDINROOF]

I am going to check that out when I get to the coast this weekend. I think though, if the perko switches are off, there should be no power at the fuse blocks or on the pump switch. If I understand how its wired, the power for the manual bilge pump switches has to come through the perko switches. Somehow, the bilge pump switch is getting power that has bypassed the perko switch and when its on, electrifies the entire panel.

I thought that maybe a positive wire going to the float switch came in contact with the wire coming from the manual switch and was back feeding power to the panel. I cannot see how this can happen unless it was wired that way intentionally and then, I would have had this problem before.

 

[seasick]

What kind of bilge pump do you have?
If there is a separate float switch from the pump, usually the manual switch lead connects directly to the motor feed and the auto float switch connects the battery to the pump switch.
If the float switch is stuck closed, power will feed back to the fuse panel.( I would expect the pump to be running though)

If the pump has an integrated switch, it should have two power leads, one for the battery feed and one for manual. If not wired correctly, power can also feed back.

Was the pump replaced? It may be wired backwards, i.e. ground to battery and battery to ground. That would mess up the circuit to the manual switch and could also back power.

If you have a separate float switch, try lifting it to see if the pump runs (automatic mode) first.
Then see if the pump runs manually from the switch with the Perko ON.

Now with the Perko OFF, check for voltages on the fuse panel. IT is also possible that another device is wired wrong and is back powering the panel ( it would have to be wired directly to the battery. This is common for some Radios/CD players that have memory)

 

[LUNDINROOF]

Seasick:

Thanks for your input. I do not know what kind of pump is in the boat but I "assume" it was the pump that was factory installed and the manual shows a separate float switch.

The wiring diagram for the panel shows one power line coming from the fuse block that would explain why all the switches are energized at the same time. I thought that it might be a ground from the bilge pump that was back feeding but this cannot happen because it would either cause a short and blow a bunch of fuses or the accessories would not work when the perko switch was on because it would have 12 volt positive on both sides of the switch.

I did have the boat at the dealers a couple of weeks ago and he replaced the live well pump. I questioned him and they say they had no reason to go down to the bilge pump or fool with the wiring to the bilge. The live well works fine so I do not think it has anything to do with this problem.

I think your suggestion to start with the float switch is the best way to go. It looks like somehow the hot wire from the battery to the float switch is in contact with the hot wire from the panel switch to the pump. I think this is what Giorgos was saying.

If this is the case, the panel switch would always be hot, only the current would be coming from the pump switch instead of through the perko switch and the main fuse.

I will start at the float switch and am prepared to try every thing. This has got me stumped.

 

[NOTHING ELSE MATTERS]

If you had the problem right after the dealer did the work, check for a pump hot wire touching the main stud of the fuse panel, should be a 8 or even a 6 gauge red wire going to that stud.

 

[LUNDINROOF]

If you had the problem right after the dealer did the work, check for a pump hot wire touching the main stud of the fuse panel, should be a 8 or even a 6 gauge red wire going to that stud.

Good thought, I'm not sure why they would have fooled with the wire on the bilge pump to replace the live well pump, but who knows? Another thing to check, thanks for the input.

 

[bayrat]

I think your on the right track. If this just started after the dealer worked on it, it could be that they screwed up wherever he took the power from. I think that your going to have to check out the dealers wiring job on the livewell for a start. Also maybe turn off a few breakers (livewell, aft bilge) and see what happens..not sure but maybe you can isolate it that way..good luck

 

[LUNDINROOF]

I've been thinking about this practically 24/7 since I left it on the rack. I cannot swear that this just started after I got it back from the dealer but I did not notice it until Saturday night.

Playing the devil's advocate, If all power to the boat is shut down when the perko switches are off, there cannot be a problem at the fuse block, the breakers or the switch panel. They do not have power so the indicator light should not be on, any of them.

Since all switches/breakers are powered by the same wire, if the problem was on the "+" side of the switches/breakers, they would all be lit up all the time. So, the problem has to be on the wire that takes the power from the switches/breakers and delivers it to the various accessories. To further reinforce this line of thought, the only systems that are "hot" when the perko switches are off is the wire to the two bilge pumps and the smaller wire to the "memories" for the stereo. Since my problem manifests itself by lighting up the manual bilge pump, and it has to be in the wiring between the pump and the switch so, I think this is where my problem is.

Now, what could have happened to cause this problem? I think the dealer is the prime suspect here but what could he have done in replacing the live well pump that would have back fed the manual bilge switch? I guess it will take some belly crawling time to trace these wires with a meter to find out. Maybe I will be lucky and find a bare wire or two right from the start.

Sorry to be so long winded, it helps to think this out slowly over a keyboard. I plan to look into it this weekend and if I find anything out I will let you know.

Thanks for all your input.

 

[BobP]

I bet you have an open negative, or the float switch when up is still conducting to some low level (leakage).

Measure voltage at motor with sw up, is it zero?, use only digital multimeter. Can have bad wiring or splices back there especially since wiring may sit in water at float.

You seemed versed enough to trace it all out, stay away from dealer on these, need a good
troubleshooter (you!).

 

[LUNDINROOF]

BobP:

You seem to have more confidence in me than I do. I am bringing my digital multimeter, heat shrink tubing, spare fuses and fire extinguisher to the boat. Something is gonna happen, for good or worst.

 

[seasick]

Playing the devil's advocate, If all power to the boat is shut down when the perko switches are off, there cannot be a problem at the fuse block, the breakers or the switch panel. They do not have power so the indicator light should not be on, any of them.

Thanks for all your input.

Here is a theory about how the light could be on.
The light on the switch is connected to the +12 output of the switch and ground. Normally when you have the perko on, the fuse block has 12 volts on it. The bilge switch when closed, now connects 12 v to the pump AND the light.

If the bilge wiring is feeding 12v back to the switch, the lamp has 12v on it to ground and it will light up. In addition, if the Perko is off but the bilge switch is turned on, the 12v back-feed from the bilge wiring is now connected to all the devices hanging off of the fuse block.

Does your stereo wiring pass through the fuse block?

The first thing to do is see if there is 12v at the fuse block buss when the Perko is off. Test to a known good ground like a wire connected to the battery neg terminal. You shouldn't see voltage. If you do, you will have to start disconnecting things one at a time to identify the source of the voltage.

Sounds like a real chalange. I wish I were there to help. I love electrical mysteries.

One more suggestion: In addition to a multimeter,an old fashioed test lamp can be handy. The multimeter draws very little current and is good at finding voltage but not determining if the voltage is a good solid source.. The test lamp, since it draws a lot more current is good at isolating voltages that originate from highly resistive connections. If the voltmeter reads 12v but the test lamp won't light, you have a high resistance connection, resistive short to 12v (leakage), or back feed through another device.

 

[BobP]

Hope you didn't have to use fire extinguisher!

We have faith in you!

 

[LUNDINROOF]

Bobp:

No, didn't have to use the fire extinguisher or sledge hammer this time.

The problem was with the float switch. When I got to the boat the #1 battery bank was dead so I hooked up the on board charger. Within a few minutes, the aft bilge started to run so I knew what the problem was.

I had to cut the wire going from the main switch breaker panel to the pump because its damn near impossible to reach the float switch with your hand when the boat is in the water, especially if your are 66, 6'1", and 250 lbs.

Anyway, got the boat to the ramp and its safely tucked away in my warehouse for the winter. I have all winter to work on the float switch, which will probably include replacing the bilge pump because it ran dry for at least a day.

Thanks for you help and encouragement.

Ed

 

[bayrat]

FWIW I actually had the same thing happen the other day while out on the water. Walked to the stern and heard something running. Finally determined it was the aft bilge pump. Turned off the breaker and it continued to run, so I assumed that it was from the float switch side. I got a long rod and reached down under the stern seat and was able to flip the switch down. I believe that it was activated after going thru some heavy seas, but cant be sure if thats really the case. In any event that should not happen ; if it happens again I'll have to deal with it permanently and replace the float switch. There was no water in the bilge.

 

[LUNDINROOF]

BayRat:

I was wondering what might have caused the float switch to lock up and couldn't figure it out. The day that I first noticed the problem we had spent at the oil rigs about 40 miles south of the coast. Mr. Weather Man predicted 5 to 10 mph winds and 2-3ft seas and once out there, the winds picked up to 20+ with 5 to 6 ft. seas. It was a really rough trip back so maybe this caused it.

I initially thought of putting a diode between the manual switch and the pump to eliminate the problem, but this would only eliminate the back-feed which is not the problem. The problem is the stuck float switch.

Two things that I think would help the situation.

One, I think a bright LED on the dash for each bilge pump that would come on if the float switch activated the pump. I can barely hear my pump with both engines off and sitting in a still bayou. When the engines are running and you are in heavy seas, it would be helpful to know when your automatic pumps are activated. If water is getting into the bilge, I need to know about it. This is a simple addition to the existing circuit and after I get it done I'm going to get a patent.

Two, if as we experienced, there is a problem with the float switch, there aught to be a convenient way to turn it off without having to cut a wire or beat it with a broomstick. This would present a problem if someone turned off the pump and forgot to turn it back on and got flooded. I cannot say that in 50 years of boating, a float switch ever saved me but I have spent numerous hours changing them out. Usually, they just stop working. This is the first time I ever had one stick in the on position.

I guess these things are what makes boating and life interesting.

Ed

 

[bayrat]

Ed...agree with everything that you said in that post. I noticed that my boat has a high water alarm with a light and a buzzer but its located in the cabin..i had the sound on "off" so I never heard it but I dont actually know how its activated (thru the float switch or a seperate circuit)so Im not sure if it would actually come on with a stuck float I like your idea of a light on the dash and would like a switch to shut the pump off in the event that it started running for no reason and you couldn't get back to flip it down. Possible the floats are getting stuck in the up position because of some manufacturing defect (i.e they are allowed too much angle toward vertical and get stuck there). I think that its significant that both of our issues started after pounding thru some rough seas. Maybe we need a different configuration float.
john

 

[LUNDINROOF]

John:

I finally got some old clothes on and crawled around in the bottom of the boat to assess the best way to eliminate my problems.

The first thing I am going to do is run water into the bilge to see if the pump still works. I am sure it ran dry for a couple of days until the batteries ran down. I have never had a bilge pump impeller go bad, usually the motor plays out long before the impeller. If the pump/impeller seem to be good, then I will have to focus on the float switch.

To get to the pump and float switch, you have to open a hatch in the rear bulkhead under the bench seat. Then you climb through this hatch and about 30 inches to the rear is a rectangular hole in a structural bulkhead in the bilge. The pump is a couple of feet beyond this and the float switch is right behind it. Grady White engineers stayed up all night to find a location for this pump so that no human could get to it.

I fooled them though, I have one man working for me that is 5'2" and weighs 105 pounds. He thinks he can get in there. I am 6'1" and 250 lbs., if its up to me, I 'll just have to sell the boat and buy another one.

I think, instead of even trying to fix the existing float switch, I'm going to install another in front of the pump. It will be a little easier to reach and instead of screwing it down, I will epoxy it down and leave the old one where it is.

Hopefully, it will not be too much trouble to trace the wires from the pump and battery and tie the new wires in.

The float switch is in a blue "box" with slots/holes in the side to prevent trash from interfering with the float. I cannot see how rough water could cause it to stick but who knows.

While in the hold, I noticed that one of the other pumps (wash down or live well) has what looks like a filter between the inlet valve and the pump. Does anyone know how this filter opens up for cleaning or do you just buy another one and discard the old?

 

[bayrat]

Ed..I feel your pain. Although we have different boats, my aft pump/ float switch is not easily reachable from what I can see. It looks like I would have to remove the livewell to access it and the float switch (which appears to be the same as yours). Ive also noticed the strainer/filter that you mention and wondered about it. Maybe someone else on the forum will chime in on this. Further, there appears to be a plastic box attached to the bulkhead with wires coming out of it. The coloring appears to be the same as the bilge pump so Im wondering if its somehow connected (I cant see the whole thing because of its location). I just got this boat in July, so I am still learning about it . I agree with you that replacing the float switch is the logical first step and hopefully does the trick. Please keep me posted on what you find. I am pulling the boat for the winter on Monday, so I will add these things to my "to do" list for the spring . Happy Thanksgiving to all.....john

 

[LUNDINROOF]

I found out that the pump is working fine, even after running dry for a couple of days. Next week I will tackle the float switch. I had thought that I would leave the old one where it is but I am determined to get it out to see what went wrong with it. Maybe I can prevent it from happening again if I know what caused it to go bad.

Have a Happy Thanksgiving all.

Ed