Just passing along some info: I am repowering my 330 from the original F250s and considering the engine alignment (toe) for the new 300s. Just talked to GW and was a bit surprised that they said all twin engine applications on all models are 0 toe, in other words, all are installed parallel. Also spoke with a Yamaha tech who worked for Yamaha and had done extensive testing. He said Yamaha found that in many cases a slight toe out (less than 1", leading edge wider) might create better bite and cleaner water for the props in addition to some additional water pressure into the intake. I plan to go with parallel since GW has been doing it this way with good results for a long time.
Toe In or Toe Out for Twin Engine Applications
- Thread starter wspitler
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When I repowered the engines were set to 0 toe, and the boat didn't handle right; it giggled on plane. I called Grady, and they also told me 0. However, in the beginning of the following season I measured a couple of 330's that were on the dry and both had about 5/8" - 7/8" toe in (despite what Grady told me). My boat is a 30', and set the toe somewhere within that, and she handles like she should.
My theory is that due to the V shape, the water doesn't flow straight back off the hull, but is pushed out slightly. Toeing in, puts the engines in line with the flow of the water. I don't think it would be safe on a 33, but I've heard people detach the cross bar or engine link and put the boat on plane. The engines will automatically move into the proper position so you can measure the optimal toe for your boat. Then adjust the bar accordingly and reattach.
You could start at 0, and then try 1/2" and so on. It's an easy adjustment.
My theory is that due to the V shape, the water doesn't flow straight back off the hull, but is pushed out slightly. Toeing in, puts the engines in line with the flow of the water. I don't think it would be safe on a 33, but I've heard people detach the cross bar or engine link and put the boat on plane. The engines will automatically move into the proper position so you can measure the optimal toe for your boat. Then adjust the bar accordingly and reattach.
You could start at 0, and then try 1/2" and so on. It's an easy adjustment.
Kizuna, Thanks for that info. I wonder if they are measuring it differently, but I too have found the answers you get from customer service don't always match what comes out of the factory.
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My 265 express toe out on my new Suzukis... definitely better
"The dealer set them parallel, ie, the tie bar was 28". I lengthened the tie bar 1/2" thus giving the motors a "toe out" angle(props pointing toward centerline slightly). This definitely improved the 265 slow speed wandering steering!"
edit: my point is Its Easy... measure from tiller to tiller, write it down...crank the tie bar wider (toe out) or shorter (toe in) by 1/2"..try it. try a little more...find a sweet spot.
Toe out will cause the prop wash to merge somewhere back in the wake.
I can't see any reason why toe in would be useful
"The dealer set them parallel, ie, the tie bar was 28". I lengthened the tie bar 1/2" thus giving the motors a "toe out" angle(props pointing toward centerline slightly). This definitely improved the 265 slow speed wandering steering!"
edit: my point is Its Easy... measure from tiller to tiller, write it down...crank the tie bar wider (toe out) or shorter (toe in) by 1/2"..try it. try a little more...find a sweet spot.
Toe out will cause the prop wash to merge somewhere back in the wake.
I can't see any reason why toe in would be useful
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Here's an old post on the issue:
www.greatgrady.com
Plenty of reasons for toe-in. Again it has to do with the flow of the water. If you have flexible brackets and counter rotating props then maybe toe out. Or if the motors are set back on a bracket where the water is beginning to converge and it's trajectory is different to when it first leaves the hull. Regardless Toe-In fixed my issue and I believe most twin outboards are set up that way.
Setting toe-in?
Anyone know what the toe-in measurement should be for a pair of Yamaha 200s on a Sailfish 252G? Also, how do you go about setting that? Compare measurements between the prop shafts and tiller arms? Thanks.
www.greatgrady.com
Plenty of reasons for toe-in. Again it has to do with the flow of the water. If you have flexible brackets and counter rotating props then maybe toe out. Or if the motors are set back on a bracket where the water is beginning to converge and it's trajectory is different to when it first leaves the hull. Regardless Toe-In fixed my issue and I believe most twin outboards are set up that way.
You can disconnect the tie bar and once you throw them in gear (forward) the loose motor will track the steered motor, even when turning.
Adjust the bar and reconnect if it's safe to reach it while on plane, otherwise measure and reconnect in neutral.
Just to make things a bit murkier, there is a lot of confusion on what is toe in and what is toe out. Most folks state that if the output shaft to output shaft measurement is less than the engine spacing, the motors are toed in. In reality, the motors are toed out. It works like this, stand behind the boat and look at your feet. Rotate you feet so that your toes are wider than your heels. Your feet are 'toed' out and the output shaft to output shaft measure is LESS than the motor center to center distance.
I have read rigging manuals for a few manufacturers and even those don't always agree on toe in versus toe out.
A general rule of thumb for recreation boats with twin motors is that when at speed on plane, the wakes of the two motors should meet at a distance of 25 to 50 feet behind the vessel. I am aware of recommendations for zero toe out (which is also zero toe in), especially for some racing hulls but I am not sure I have seen recommendations for toe in (prop shaft to prop shaft distance ) greater than the engine mounting distance..
Also bear in mind that measurements like 1 inch or whatever don't mean a lot. It is the angle of the prop shafts that matter. In the case of my other boat with twin 150 Mercs, a change of 1/4 inch in the tie bar length , makes a big difference in the wake patterns.
I have read rigging manuals for a few manufacturers and even those don't always agree on toe in versus toe out.
A general rule of thumb for recreation boats with twin motors is that when at speed on plane, the wakes of the two motors should meet at a distance of 25 to 50 feet behind the vessel. I am aware of recommendations for zero toe out (which is also zero toe in), especially for some racing hulls but I am not sure I have seen recommendations for toe in (prop shaft to prop shaft distance ) greater than the engine mounting distance..
Also bear in mind that measurements like 1 inch or whatever don't mean a lot. It is the angle of the prop shafts that matter. In the case of my other boat with twin 150 Mercs, a change of 1/4 inch in the tie bar length , makes a big difference in the wake patterns.
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hmmm, yes now I can see that a bracket might benefit from toe in. I have good old fashioned 'motors on transom'.Here's an old post on the issue:
Setting toe-in?
Anyone know what the toe-in measurement should be for a pair of Yamaha 200s on a Sailfish 252G? Also, how do you go about setting that? Compare measurements between the prop shafts and tiller arms? Thanks.
Plenty of reasons for toe-in. Again it has to do with the flow of the water. If you have flexible brackets and counter rotating props then maybe toe out. Or if the motors are set back on a bracket where the water is beginning to converge and it's trajectory is different to when it first leaves the hull. Regardless Toe-In fixed my issue and I believe most twin outboards are set up that way.
I think it's the reverse. Motors on transom = toed in. Motors set further back = 0 or possibly toed out.
SkunkBoat
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heheheh we really settled this question
I'm not even sure we all mean the same thing when we say in or out
All I know is my 265 wandered like hell at idle speed until I set it toe out (props pointed toward each other)
I'm not even sure we all mean the same thing when we say in or out
All I know is my 265 wandered like hell at idle speed until I set it toe out (props pointed toward each other)
If you compare twin motors to a car's front tires, it is easier to relate to what toe in means; The front of the tires are closer to each other than the back of the tires...Toed-In..heheheh we really settled this question
I'm not even sure we all mean the same thing when we say in or out
All I know is my 265 wandered like hell at idle speed until I set it toe out (props pointed toward each other)
It is even easier if you think of the motors as the tires that steer.
In any case toed in front tires will equate to outboards where the output shafts are spaced wider than the center to center spacing of the motors, That is not what you typically want on outboards. You want the opposite motors toed out
If you just forget about toe in or toe out, instead think of the angle of the motor and its wake. If the prop shafts are angled inward, towards each other, the wakes will cross at some distance aft of the transom, usually that should be 25 to 50 feet as a starting point.
Bumping this thread, ironically I've been searching on outboard toe but didn't find this thread until I had already fired off a question to grady.
I'm repowering my 330, and I was surprised to find that my motors aren't parallel, currently the leading edge of the bullets is 0.5" closer than the prop shafts. I am going to call this "toe in."
Ken @ propgods recommended I adjust them to have the prop shafts 0.75" closer than the front tips, or basically the opposite of what I have going on now.
Curious if anyone else experimented on a 330 with this setting. It's a bit of hassle for me and my current tie rod may be flat out frozen anyway.
I'm repowering my 330, and I was surprised to find that my motors aren't parallel, currently the leading edge of the bullets is 0.5" closer than the prop shafts. I am going to call this "toe in."
Ken @ propgods recommended I adjust them to have the prop shafts 0.75" closer than the front tips, or basically the opposite of what I have going on now.
Curious if anyone else experimented on a 330 with this setting. It's a bit of hassle for me and my current tie rod may be flat out frozen anyway.
I have no experience with a 330, but just went through the same process on our 270 based on Ken's advice. On the 270 with 4 cylinder Suzukis and Eco Enertia's he was dead on. I started out neutral and performance was great, but would lose bite if I trimmed up more than half the range or turned. Moved the prop shafts closer together and the performance is even better. See my thread about the Islander with magical props.
On the trailer it only took me 20 minutes to make the change. Had I a helper for measurements, it would have been half that.
Usually the rigging manual will specify the amount of toe or toe out but even that can be misleading. In addition some setups specify zero toe in or out.
It is easy to make twins parallel but a spec like 1/4 inch can be misleading. The trailing measurement is easy, i's the spacing between the two prop shafts (center to center) but the leading edge measurement might be the forward edge of the lower unit or more likely the spacing of the end bolts on the motor tie bar. What is more helpful is a spec that tells you how far off of the transom, the motor wakes meet. 20 to 25 feet is a decent starting point but the reality is that if you want to optimize performance and/or handling, you will have to experiment with different settings at specific speeds. Start with the motors parallel and then add a little extra spacing to the tie bar by adjusting the threaded shaft one or two turns.
To make an initial estimate of your motor alignment, measure the center to center distance of two engine mounting bolts ( the same bolt on each motor). More often then not, that will be 26 inches. Now measure the center to center distance of the motor tie rod spacing. For Yamahas, that might ne a tad more than 26 inches. That tells you that the motors are angled toward each other.
There are those who will tell you to run at speed with the steering disconnected and see where the motors end up and use that as your setting. I think that idea is crazy and wouldn't try it.
To add more confusion to the discussion, different manufacturers use the terms toe in and toe out differently. You may think that the motors should be toed in to make the wakes cross. Granted, the motors will be angled toward each other but technically that is toed out!
You should think of a person standing behind the boat, feet on the ground. The persons feet are the motors, your toes face forward and your heels aft. If you want the motors to angle in towards each other, you would spread the front of your feet wider apart than the heels. Yours feet are toed out So what most boaters as well as many manufactures call toe in is really toe out!
It is easy to make twins parallel but a spec like 1/4 inch can be misleading. The trailing measurement is easy, i's the spacing between the two prop shafts (center to center) but the leading edge measurement might be the forward edge of the lower unit or more likely the spacing of the end bolts on the motor tie bar. What is more helpful is a spec that tells you how far off of the transom, the motor wakes meet. 20 to 25 feet is a decent starting point but the reality is that if you want to optimize performance and/or handling, you will have to experiment with different settings at specific speeds. Start with the motors parallel and then add a little extra spacing to the tie bar by adjusting the threaded shaft one or two turns.
To make an initial estimate of your motor alignment, measure the center to center distance of two engine mounting bolts ( the same bolt on each motor). More often then not, that will be 26 inches. Now measure the center to center distance of the motor tie rod spacing. For Yamahas, that might ne a tad more than 26 inches. That tells you that the motors are angled toward each other.
There are those who will tell you to run at speed with the steering disconnected and see where the motors end up and use that as your setting. I think that idea is crazy and wouldn't try it.
To add more confusion to the discussion, different manufacturers use the terms toe in and toe out differently. You may think that the motors should be toed in to make the wakes cross. Granted, the motors will be angled toward each other but technically that is toed out!
You should think of a person standing behind the boat, feet on the ground. The persons feet are the motors, your toes face forward and your heels aft. If you want the motors to angle in towards each other, you would spread the front of your feet wider apart than the heels. Yours feet are toed out
So what most boaters as well as many manufactures call toe in is really toe out!