NE Canyon run w/ gas bladder planning

[capeman]

I have a GW 335 w/ twin 425s and 300 gallon fuel capacity. I am in the initial stages of trip planning to the NE canyons and have a couple of questions. I am about 115-120 miles from the canyons one way. Given a burn of 1 mile per gallon I'll need 250 gallons round trip. So I know I need additional fuel via a gas bladder. Thinking 100 gallon bladder would be enough as I'd then have 150 gallons in reserve. That said, does anyone have experience w/ a gas fuel bladder and if so any hints or suggestions. I am concerned about safety with gas (vapors) and wondering how exactly I am going to transfer the fuel (gravity, pump). Thanks in advance for your help.

 

[SkunkBoat]

I assume you have two 150 gal tanks.
Normally you run both motors on the rear tank and then switch to the front tank when the rear is "nearly" empty
Each motor has a 3 way(1/closed/2) fuel valve that connects both built-in tanks to the motor and you select which tank you use.

for connection to one motor ..you add another 3 way fuel shutoff to just one of your existing tank lines(not the motor feed line).
Hose with an outboard quick connect female fitting and a male fitting on the bladder(this makes it removeable)

To say it a different way; the existing 3 way connects to one existing tank and a line that connects to a new 3 way that is connected to the other existing tank and the bladder

On the run out, you close off the fuel tank(s) and run from the bladder
you need to burn the 100 gal (so it is empty when you get there so you can clear the deck)
Therefore, you need to run both motors on the bladder.
So you need to double the 3 ways and fittings and need a double pickup in the bladder.


If you used a 50 gal bladder, you could just setup one motor. You would, in theory, have 100 gals reserve (28.5%) which is adequate if you pay attention.

 

[SkunkBoat]

There is a quick & dirty way to connect which is the add a quick connect to the motor feed line at the existing 3 way such that you can disconnect the motor from the 3 way and connect it directly to the bladder. But that puts a quick connect after the 3 way shutoff.

in this scenario, like the other config, you want the filter/water separator to remain in line even with the bladder connected.

 

[capeman]

I assume you have two 150 gal tanks.
Normally you run both motors on the rear tank and then switch to the front tank when the rear is "nearly" empty
Each motor has a 3 way(1/closed/2) fuel valve that connects both built-in tanks to the motor and you select which tank you use.

for connection to one motor ..you add another 3 way fuel shutoff to just one of your existing tank lines(not the motor feed line).
Hose with an outboard quick connect female fitting and a male fitting on the bladder(this makes it removeable)

To say it a different way; the existing 3 way connects to one existing tank and a line that connects to a new 3 way that is connected to the other existing tank and the bladder

On the run out, you close off the fuel tank(s) and run from the bladder
you need to burn the 100 gal (so it is empty when you get there so you can clear the deck)
Therefore, you need to run both motors on the bladder.
So you need to double the 3 ways and fittings and need a double pickup in the bladder.


If you used a 50 gal bladder, you could just setup one motor. You would, in theory, have 100 gals reserve (28.5%) which is adequate if you pay attention.

I actually have a single 300 gallon fuel tank. I'd imagine I could install a quick connect fitting and a main shutoff so that I can select the bladder vs main. The other option is to refill the main tank via hose to fill pipe. You are right in that I likely could get away w/ a 50g bladder although depending on how much running we'd do while at the canyons I might want another 50g in reserve. Need to think about that a bit more. Going w/ the small bladder would be best. As for the safety concern.. I understand gas is much more volatile than diesel. So, wondering how safe it is to go this route w/ the bladder in general. Thanks for your reply!

 

[SkunkBoat]

I didn't use a bladder. I used two 14 gal rolling plastic tanks (only 10-12 gals in each to prevent spills) and filled by gravity into the Fuel Fill.
I don't recommend it. Potential for a spill is real. Gasoline on deck or in the bilge is extremely dangerous.
I never really NEEDED that gas but I felt better having it.
I opted for getting new 4 stroke motors that extented my range from 250 miles to 400 miles on my built in tanks.

Sounds like you have a new boat. Burn some gas at different speeds and in different conditions and really get to know what you can do.
You might find that reducing your speed to a reasonable 28-30mph gets you what you need.

Great thing is these new motors tell you what you are burning. Don't go by the tank gauge, go by the fuel used....MAKE SURE YOU REMEMBER TO RESET AT THE GAS DOCK AFTER TOPPING THE TANK! Sucks when you run for 50 miles and then you remember....

 

[drbatts]

A couple of other considerations you need to thinks about too. First with the 300 gallons, not all of it is usable fuel. Even if you run the motors to starvation there will still be a percentage of fuel left in the tank. Also with a lot of newer boats you cannot fill the fuel tank up the entire way. You may have a 300 gallon tank, but it may not take a full 300 gallons. In addition forecasts change and you can not always run at your normal cruise speed with a nice consistent economical fuel burn. Is that 1 mpg your normal cruise burn or is it loaded to the gills with ICE, supplies and a crew? I would be very conservative with fuel burn and definitely go for the bigger bladder. It will also give you more options to move around a bit to find the fish once your out there. Setting the bladder up the way Skunk describes with the selector switch and quick connects is the way to go.

 

[capeman]

I didn't use a bladder. I used two 14 gal rolling plastic tanks (only 10-12 gals in each to prevent spills) and filled by gravity into the Fuel Fill.
I don't recommend it. Potential for a spill is real. Gasoline on deck or in the bilge is extremely dangerous.
I never really NEEDED that gas but I felt better having it.
I opted for getting new 4 stroke motors that extented my range from 250 miles to 400 miles on my built in tanks.

Sounds like you have a new boat. Burn some gas at different speeds and in different conditions and really get to know what you can do.
You might find that reducing your speed to a reasonable 28-30mph gets you what you need.

Great thing is these new motors tell you what you are burning. Don't go by the tank gauge, go by the fuel used....MAKE SURE YOU REMEMBER TO RESET AT THE GAS DOCK AFTER TOPPING THE TANK! Sucks when you run for 50 miles and then you remember....

Agree that I am going to need to speed the time to run at different speeds under different conditions w/ load to get more specific burn rates. I fish primarily East of Chatham from Peak Hill Bar down to Regal Sword. During last season I was running between .9 - 1.1 mpg. However, it was rare that I tried to optimize for fuel economy. So I'll do my home work early in the season. I do use the onboard fuel monitor which is good but I think I need to calibrate it (can be done via the Yamaha CL7) as I end up putting in about 5-8% more fuel than indicated after a run. However, its hard to tell if I am filling the tank the entire way.. so more variables to sort out!

 

[capeman]

A couple of other considerations you need to thinks about too. First with the 300 gallons, not all of it is usable fuel. Even if you run the motors to starvation there will still be a percentage of fuel left in the tank. Also with a lot of newer boats you cannot fill the fuel tank up the entire way. You may have a 300 gallon tank, but it may not take a full 300 gallons. In addition forecasts change and you can not always run at your normal cruise speed with a nice consistent economical fuel burn. Is that 1 mpg your normal cruise burn or is it loaded to the gills with ICE, supplies and a crew? I would be very conservative with fuel burn and definitely go for the bigger bladder. It will also give you more options to move around a bit to find the fish once your out there. Setting the bladder up the way Skunk describes with the selector switch and quick connects is the way to go.

Good point on what is my usable fuel onboard as it sure isn't 300 gallons. I would agree that I should go w/ the 100g bladder as it will afford me that bit extra if and when things don't go according to plan. My concern is offloading the fuel which I believe needs to be done with great care. The quick connectors approach seems to be the best approach to prevent/minimize fuel spillage.

 

[Hookup1]

Sorry but I think this is a stupid idea. You gunna need a bigger boat! Seriously 120 miles from home is a lonesome place. If you are doing this at least do it during the summer with another boat from your marina. With all your safety equipment in top shape.

 

[DennisG01]

I think you have solid plan there. While I don't have personal experience with a fuel bladder, by no means is this "untried" or "new territory". Fuel bladders have been around for quite a while and as long as you take your safety precautions, are reliable. You might consider a gas-rated 12V fuel pump to transfer the gas from the bag to your tank. I'm not recommending this one in particular, just showing it as an example: https://www.amazon.com/GasTapper-El...+volt+gas+transfer+pump&qid=1613363013&sr=8-4

 

[Fishtales]

Sorry but I think this is a stupid idea. You gunna need a bigger boat! Seriously 120 miles from home is a lonesome place. If you are doing this at least do it during the summer with another boat from your marina. With all your safety equipment in top shape.

I'd give this some consideration. I'd be concerned about the style of boat as well. While it can be buttoned up, it is a big dual console really not the type of boat I'd want to be on that far away from port when it turns on you. If less than a handful times of year, I guess. If this is a regular event, I'd want a a bigger boat and one designed for the weather and seas that can be expected.

 

[drbatts]

I think you have solid plan there. While I don't have personal experience with a fuel bladder, by no means is this "untried" or "new territory". Fuel bladders have been around for quite a while and as long as you take your safety precautions, are reliable. You might consider a gas-rated 12V fuel pump to transfer the gas from the bag to your tank. I'm not recommending this one in particular, just showing it as an example: https://www.amazon.com/GasTapper-El...+volt+gas+transfer+pump&qid=1613363013&sr=8-4

I have this transfer pump and it works well, However it is very slow. I cannot imagine using it to transfer 100 gallons. Having never been on a 335, I'm not sure on on available space to easily put a bladder considering for a canyon run you will most likely have several big coolers and other gear taking up space. I think you would want to burn the fuel in the bladder first to clear deck space. Its not like an express or a sporty where the bladder can be out of the way up on the bow.

 

[DennisG01]

I have this transfer pump and it works well, However it is very slow. I cannot imagine using it to transfer 100 gallons. Having never been on a 335, I'm not sure on on available space to easily put a bladder considering for a canyon run you will most likely have several big coolers and other gear taking up space. I think you would want to burn the fuel in the bladder first to clear deck space. Its not like an express or a sporty where the bladder can be out of the way up on the bow.

I just looked at the specs for that pump... you're not kidding! 65g per hour! But it's at least an "example" to get him going and offer and idea.

Good point about the style/layout of the boat, I wasn't thinking of that. However, 100g isn't really all that much and the size of the bag will not be that big. I agree that it would be nice to use up the bag fuel, first, although chances are he's going to use up 100g from the main tank on the way out. Then he could transfer the fuel and fold the bag up and stuff it somewhere out of the way. The main reason I'm thinking this way is preferred is that it's just a simpler method, rather than running fuel lines and such.

The bags I've looked at in the past, after hearing of others use them, is the ATL brand. Take a look at their products - they have multiple styles/sizes/shapes - even custom designed bags to fit in a compartment.

Fish, the most I go offshore is about 20-25 miles (although I've done it in a 17' boat!). You probably know more about this than me, but I thought guys with CC's do this type of run regularly? If so, that's (essentially) the same style boat as the DC, just with different seating, right? I know the big sportfisherman-style boat is common place, for sure, though.

 

[capeman]

I'd give this some consideration. I'd be concerned about the style of boat as well. While it can be buttoned up, it is a big dual console really not the type of boat I'd want to be on that far away from port when it turns on you. If less than a handful times of year, I guess. If this is a regular event, I'd want a a bigger boat and one designed for the weather and seas that can be expected.

There are more than a few folks who make the run from the cape and islands to the NE canyons in GW 306/307s. Certainly the 335 is up for the task. However, I would agree that there is no chance I am making the run w/o a buddy boat or two. Being offshore 100 miles is serious business and is not a smart play w/o backup in a 34' boat. That said, weather conditions will need to be 'perfect' in my book for the run to occur. So, not even sure if the weather window will present itself this coming season. I hope so, but not cutting any corners. Direct fuel bladder connect is the way to go from the feedback and therefore I will discuss w/ my dealer to get his take on it and recommendations on install as I'd want a professional to make any modifications.

 

[SkunkBoat]

I'm surprised that you are only getting 1 mpg. From posts on here it seems guys with 330s and 600 hp are doing much better.
As for running to canyons the 335 is plenty of boat for fair weather forecasts.

 

[capeman]

I'm surprised that you are only getting 1 mpg. From posts on here it seems guys with 330s and 600 hp are doing much better.
As for running to canyons the 335 is plenty of boat for fair weather forecasts.

I haven't spent much time over the last 2 seasons paying much attention to fuel economy as I was enjoying the heck out of the boat and learning to tuna fish. Been offshore 45 miles east of Nantucket numerous times but thats the extent of my offshore experience. I do believe at a slower speed 27-29mph I should be getting 1.1-1.2 with full load onboard. I plan on making runs in the spring/early summer with the goal to monitor fuel use more closely. I might not need extra fuel.. however I am not one to tempt fate. So, likely would minimally run w/ additional 50g but likely 100g reserve. In my book why even worry about it as there are so many other things that you need to pay attention to when offshore.

 

[SkunkBoat]

You run out of Chatham? Been looking at the map. To Oceanographer you're looking at 120 to the tip and 137 to the edge.
Maybe you get to Veatch at 110-125. Can you run a straight line across nantucket shoals?
Depending on the year, you might not get to the warm eddy until the edge or farther.
..Almost makes me not feel so bad about running 110mi to the 100 square of the Hudson

Definitely an overnight trip there, No way to justify all that fuel and running time for a day trip.

Might be hard to pass up bluefins at 45mi to get to yft at 120.
We got really lucky this year and yellowfins setup short of the canyon at 75 miles for 3 months

aahhh... i love daydreaming about fishing..

 

[capeman]

You run out of Chatham? Been looking at the map. To Oceanographer you're looking at 120 to the tip and 137 to the edge.
Maybe you get to Veatch at 110-125. Can you run a straight line across nantucket shoals?
Depending on the year, you might not get to the warm eddy until the edge or farther.
..Almost makes me not feel so bad about running 110mi to the 100 square of the Hudson

Definitely an overnight trip there, No way to justify all that fuel and running time for a day trip.

Might be hard to pass up bluefins at 45mi to get to yft at 120.
We got really lucky this year and yellowfins setup short of the canyon at 75 miles for 3 months

aahhh... i love daydreaming about fishing..

I am based in Hyannis. So heading south via Muskeget channel I am ~110mi to Atlantis / ~125mi Veatch. Agree that spending the night likely makes a lot of sense given the long run. Good point that running 30-50mi for bluefin is primary focus. I can also go further East to George's bank and likely will explore out that way this coming season. I also had an epic catch this season of a 54" Atlantic halibut (pic attached). So, fishing is pretty darn awesome where I travel today and hence I am thinking its a 1-2x a year special trip to the canyons.

 

[SkunkBoat]

ATLANTIC HALIBUT!!!!....I am not worthy....

Dunno if you've done overnight canyon trips on other boats. That experience helps.
For me, doing canyon trips on MY boat is the culmination of 50 years of fishing. Starting with bluegills in a pond, canoes, tin boat, head boats, friends boats, 20 footer, to my 265.
Be prepared, learn what weather pattern works for your area, pick your perfect days (work and life schedule be damned) and go for it.

and remember...you will never run out of gas AT the canyon.... you will run out 5 miles short of the inlet...so stop in Edgartown for a beer...

 

[drbatts]

You could probably also stop at either the vinyard or nantucket and top off with fuel too. We have a long run out from CT, but will top off fuel in montauk on our way out and back.